Featured Equivocating Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism

Again that's the type of mindset that told me my dead child was in hell because he didn't hear the gospel...oh & I put him there because he was born out of wedlock. And I reject Calvinism for that pronouncement.

Guess you also feel that Primitive Baptists & Old Regular Baptists are also Hyper Calvinists, right.

 

Good posts RIP-

Looks like they had to defend against the same errors then as now:wavey:

 

All men everywhere are responsible to worship God and live sinless.They cannot coming from Adam.Adam's sin does not lower God's standard of righteousness.....the 10 commandments.

It is not for you or anyone else to speculate on what if no grace is offered, they are still responsible,and in fact condemned unless Jesus saves them.
If no grace is offered their sin still lands them in Hell.That is why we are to go to bring the gospel to the perishing.....

Who Jesus actually atoned for on the Cross is a great multitude...so we go bring the word to the lost.

1] God has purposed to save sinners IN CHRIST...

2] Everyone who comes to Jesus by a God given faith will be saved.

3] Those who come receive real forgiveness of sins.

4] No one in and of themselves want to come.

5] Everyone the Father has given to the Son...WILL COME...

6] Have you come to Jesus as Lord and Saviour,in repentance and faith?

 

What do you expect them to do, defend something that a Non Calvinist states is at odds with a Dr. Suess book? In fact, did you two get your doctorates from the same institution?

Again, within your journey of perpetual error, many Calvinists do not believe in creeds of any type, in fact, some despise them. So is this your point, that it irks you to have to debate what is a fact and truth?

Some people who believe in Doctrines of Grace only do not agree with all five points of TULIP. Some areas they agree with depending on the individual. As usual, you set your own boundaries for others to debate, even when you understand neither the debate nor the definitions of the varying systems of belief.

This last paragraph has no logic or structure. They are a bunch of words joined together in a sentence that give no discernible meaning. The closest that I can interpret it into English is "he was a Calvinist before he was not,"

 

I did not speculate anything. I based it on the doctrine of limited atonement.

This statement lacks any clarity or logic.

 

Whoever told you those things was cruel and ignorant.

I don't know enough about ORB's to comment, but I do define my PB brothers as hyper-Calvinists for the reason I stated. That is, they believe that God may choose to save his elect independently of the gospel.

Other than that, I share a lot of beliefs with PB's regarding the doctrines of grace.

My paternal grandmother was a PB, and one of the Godliest women I ever knew.

 

And you call her a hyper Calvinist as well?

 

Brother Tom, as are most 'Evangelical Calvinists', is just as 'hyper' (extreme) (actually more so) as the PBs, except in another way. He is a Hyper Hardline Restrictivist that holds that all who have not heard the gospel are going to hell. Tom has even stated that Gentiles under the old covenant went to hell.

But this multitude that knoweth not the gospel are accursed. Jn 7:49

That about sums up the gist of the 'hyper hardline restrictivist' view.

 

Larry thank you....is there anything to read & study about the restrictivist view? Interesting that a person may say that he believes in salvation by grace, but if he sets forth any act of man's will, such as repentance, faith, baptism, or hearing the gospel, as a condition for obtaining it, then this position must be put on the works side. He then is really closer in beliefs to the humanist Arminian in reality. I will have to bear this in mind for next time.

In truth, Brother Tom would have to agree with the Calvinists that told me my son is in hell because he never heard the gospel....that would be consistent with their thinking.

If he were to put renewed emphesis into the study of:

2 Timothy 3:15–17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So the Scriptures are written that the child of God "may be thoroughly furnished unto all good works." The Scriptures do not bring eternal salvation but are able to make us "wise unto it"

 

Exactly. "For doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." No mention of a formula for the obtaining of immortality. Again:

9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1

The gospel doesn't impart life and immortality, it tells of it. It's Christ who has abolished death. The Hyper Hardliners have made the very same mistake as the Jews did:

Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; Jn 5:39

 

As is being seen with the infighting, hyper Calvinism is what true Calvinism logically leads to. I give them credit that at least they embrace this and don't try talking out of both sides of their mouths. Logically all 5 points stand and fall together. That's why it is known as systematic theology.

I of course outright deny response of man is 'works' as was alluded to above. Grace is not opposed to effort, it is opposed to earning.

 

"Works" in scripture is always a reference to OT law. It cannot rightly be applied to just anything man can do.

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your statement.

Are you coming from some perspective that holds that a person can get saved outside of the work of God through the Word? That the preaching and teaching of the Scriptures is not necessary for a person to be saved?

Romans 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
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No, Brother Tom would not - for it is not consistent with the thinking that he has shared on the BB - even expressing it earlier directly to this issue.

In history, various religious groups have attempted some human involvement in saving or keeping saved. Such things as pedobaptism, last rights, confessionals... were all attempts at not only controlling the ignorant masses, but also because in some ways the Scriptures remain almost silent with only hints. Hints such as David's prayer that states that he will go to him (the baby that died) and not the reverse.

Personally the Calvinistic thinkers I have come to know do not share the thinking that your child is in hell. If fact, they would be appalled and repulsed by a statement such as that.

For your edification, the arminian thinking D. Hyles preached that if the parents were saved the child was in heaven, if the parents were not saved, then the child was in hell. Whether his father had the same view, I do not recall.

The point being that such statements come from folks who have little Scriptural credibility to support their perspective on this matter. It doesn't matter the "title" or "camp" but the perspective.

It is truly astounding and deplorable that anyone would make that statement about a child who has died.

Personally, I hold that you can with certainty rejoice to see that child for like David mentioned you will certainly go to him/her - eventually. That is a blessing of hope!

This isn't the place for an expedition into 2 Tim 3: But to reflect upon these thoughts.

Just as my own children were taught, Tim was no doubt taught Scriptures. As Tim grew, of course the Scriptures that he had been taught became more understandable (just as my own children experienced). The "wise unto salvation" means merely that the wisdom of knowing the Scriptures worked to bring Tim to salvation. This is just as any other person who hears the Gospel and God's word penetrates the heart to bring salvation to them. Many hear, but few actually have God's word penetrate the heart.

Often folks will preach the "all Scriptures is profitable ..." as applicable to only the saved, but in fact that isn't the case.

Great wisdom of practical living and social justice can be gathered out of the Scriptures by the heathen that have no desire for the things of God nor Salvation.

This specific part of Paul's letter to Tim could just as well have been written on the dollar bill to replace "In God we trust" or as the commandments are displayed on the wall of the Supreme Court. It is practical lessons learned.

How often do heathen people say, "Do as you would have someone do unto you." or "What goes around, comes around," not really knowing that these are Scriptural principals that the world may use, but the believer must exceed.

 

And the same can be applied to Arminian thinking.

Eventually the arminianist must embrace the extreme facets of the end of the view such as the denial of eternal punishment, no eternal security and other such heretical teachings (man can decide at will to be saved and lost and saved and lost and saved yet never have assurance of actually being saved at any time.)

The point being that all views have their extremists and no view holds complete truth (in my opinion) or even partial truth in that extreme.

Just because someone has a perspective that may align with certain high points of some view(s) doesn't mean that they embrace the extreme.

Else all believers would be fundamental fanatics who don't chew, spit and go with anyone who do.

 

Good thing there are not really any arminians on this board.

 

:thumbsup::laugh:

 

Those are false leaps in logic. It is like thinking since I believe we have the freedom to murder someone or not, it equally means we can undo the murder once it committed. Free will does not lead to such conclusions, hence no problem with my position.

 

Without appearing arrogant, I would first like to get your description of (1) What is a Calvinist & (2) What is a Hyper Calvinist & (3) Do you agree with KYRED that there is a Hyper REVISIONIST group within the Calvinists that do not walk lock step with regular Calvinist? Oh & lastly can you back up your last statement (I bolded it) with Scripture?

 

You 'non-Cals/free willers/Arminians/synergists' (take your pick) insist that it is YOUR choice, YOUR will, YOUR decision, YOUR action that places you in Christ.

You 'non-Cals/free willers/Arminians/synergists' (take your pick) also insist that it is YOUR choice, YOUR will, YOUR decision; YOUR action as a soul winner that places others in Christ.

IOW, you not only have power over your own eternal destiny, but the eternal destiny of others also.

Slacking soul winners equates to more folks in hell.

Diligent soul winners equate to more folks in heaven.

Is this not correct?

Is this not also 'hyper'?

 

I am living this....

2 Timothy 3:15–17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

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Look the last thing I want to do is to upset Tom...that is not my intent. When I read Scripture, it is always after a prayer asking the HS to open my eyes. In the case of my child, the conversation started with a Head Elder at a OPC church quoting me exactly his understanding of Salvation....IE, you MUST hear scripture in order to be saved. He also added other odious prerequisites to the equation....prompting me (because I had lost a child who definately hadnt heard Scripture) to probe him further. It got to the point that I was enraged....told them so & went to a Reformed Church (My wifes really Dutch Reformed) instead & in the process of interviewing the pastor there , he reinforced the same story. Lastly, and this is where it got bizarre, they arranged a conference call with me & added a pastor who is a .... wait for it...."A Westminster Graduate", so apparently they were bringing in the big guns. Here is the bottom line, while they sympathised they could not tell me the status of my deceised child. Whats more, since my wife & I (then my girlfriend) were living in "SIN" & consieved & birth a child out of wedlock, we were looked at as outside of their "Church"..... then I was a roman Catholic & was not aware that the REFORMED CHURCH was really the correct church...or should I say the Covenant Believers. And to make matters worse, my girl friend was not looked upon favorably (because as a Dutch Reformed, she should have known better).

In other words, I have a history with Church people / Calvinistic Reformed types that isnt favorable. End result is they made my wife feel so inferior that she drank herself into oblivion to stop the pain of feeling that she had put her child in hell.....try working that one out over 25 years.

And all because we were sinners for not upholding there standardization of how a person is saved (including hearing & responding to the gospel). And for me, 2nd Timothy was a revelation.

My brother Tom, probably stepped in a place that is very ....well you know. Here is what you gotta do ....dont tell me the Reformed & Presby pastors are idiots....they already know it & so do I. Rather justify to me where my son is today....give me scripture.....give me accountability & placement. Dont need answers like, we arent sure. Lastly, where were these guys when my wife & I were grieving....nowhere to be found. Well no, thats not true....they were holed up in their Gathering Institutions preaching faulty theology & collecting checks.

And Benny thinks Im a Calvinist. Bitter sweet, more than anyone will ever know.

Balderdash....forgive me if I dont share your optimism of the Calvinistic thinker (been there & done that).

Yea, thats a holdover from the Calvinists