Errors in the Bible

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by DocCas, Apr 13, 2001.

  1. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    This topic is to discuss charges of "error" in the Bible (any version). If you believe any version has either a textual or translational error, please post the verse and why you think it is in error. Please do not post "Such and such is an error and should read such and such." Post the reading, and why you think it should read differently and post the Hebrew/Greek words, and/or the textual evidence to support your charge of error.

    This can be enlightening and educational if done in the right spirit after a bit of personal study.

    Snide and ugly remarks will be deleted by the moderator, so let's keep this on a Christian level.

    The Moderator
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    In a throw back to a discussion started on the old BB and now lost in cyberspace an appropriate start may be with "Easter".

    "And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." KJV1769

    Greek (from Chaldean) is "pascha"; the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it)

    Every other time in the LXX and NT that "pascha" is used it is translated "passover".

    I've been a Jew and am now a Christian but never have I seen Passover and Easter identified as the same. Why in AD1611 (and earlier English versions) did they do this?
     
  3. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2000
    Messages:
    1,770
    Likes Received:
    0
    just to add to that, i thought it interesting that at Easter service this morning, they handed out to the kids Easter eggs (evidently wrapped in labour-rich Indonesia) with the greeting inscribed, "Selamat Paska."

    so i looks up the Indonesian Bible (hmm, is it the ONLY preserved one?!! ;) n sees (BOLD mine):

    Acts 12:4
    Setelah ditangkap, Petrus dimasukkan ke dalam penjara. Empat regu tentara ditugaskan untuk menjaga Petrus di situ--masing-masing regu terdiri dari empat orang anggota tentara. Sesudah perayaan Paskah selesai, baru Herodes akan mengadili Petrus di hadapan umum.


    Bahasa Indonesia Sehari-hari (BIS)
    Copyright (C) 1994 by
    Lembaga Alkitab Indonesia (Indonesian Bible Society).
    Released for non-profit scholarly and personal use. Not to be sold for profit.
    When making formal public reference to the materials, please acknowledge The Indonesian Bible Society (Lembaga Alkitab Indonesia) as the copyright holder.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    I've been a Jew and am now a Christian but never have I seen Passover and Easter identified as the same. Why in AD1611 (and earlier English versions) did they do this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  4. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    The answer us quite simple. (I know there are some on the BB who have an irrational fear of dictionaries, but . . . ) The Oxford English Dictionary states on page 19 of the "E" volume: Easter; 1. One of the great festivals of the Christian church, commemorating the resurrection of Christ, and corresponding to the Jewish passover, the name of which it bears in most of the European languages. 2. The Jewish Passover. Obsolete

    In 1611 when the KJV was translated, "Easter" also meant "The Jewish Passover."

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,666
    Likes Received:
    225
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    "And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." KJV1769

    *snip*

    Every other time in the LXX and NT that "pascha" is used it is translated "passover".

    I've been a Jew and am now a Christian but never have I seen Passover and Easter identified as the same. Why in AD1611 (and earlier English versions) did they do this?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Let's hear your answer, Dr. Bob.

    The men who translated the KJV were of a calibre without parallel today. It is hard for me to imagine that if the two (easter and passover) were not the same that they would make such a glaring error.

    Thomas Cassidy's explanation seems reasonable to me, and as the KJV translators were comparing and revising previous versions the Old English word simply remained here.

    I don't know what the big deal is.
     
  6. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chris, if, as you say, "Easter and Passover are not the same" then you will not only have to update the KJV, but virtually every bible in a European language, as well as Forever Settled's Bible (BIS), which uses Paska/Paskah for both Easter and Passover. As was said on another thread, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" [​IMG]
     
  7. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    0
    The King James Bible is not in error. The Easter in Acts 12:4 occured after the Passover. Acts 12:3 says it was "the days of unleavened bread." The feast of unleavened bread was after the Passover, see Numbers 28:16-25. But this Easter was after the feast of unleavened bread. It refers to a pagan holiday. Easter was the right translation to distinguish it from the Jewish Passover. The KJV translators were very wise in using the word Easter. They simply used the same reading of Tyndale, Matthews, and Geneva Bible.
    We must not neglect the context of the verse, it is a season that is noted.

    The King James Bible is the preserved Word of God kept intact in the English language.

    Ye Must Be Born Again
     
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Was there another (more correct) word for Easter than the Greek "pascha" - which means passover in common useage?

    BTW, I have no problem with Thomas' explanation for the translation, just the fact that - although correct in AD1611 as an archaic item then - it is misleading today to have Passover/Easter interchanged.
     
  9. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is a good question, Dr. Bob. What I find interesting is that English is one of the few languages which distinguishes between Easter and Passover. The Spanish word for Easter is Pascua; French: Pâques; Portuguese: Páscoa; Dutch: Pasen; Italian: Pasqua. In fact, the only European language that I know of which does make a distinction (other than English, of course) is German which translates Easter as Ostern and Passover as Passah. I suspect the similarity is due to English being a member of the Germanic Cognate Language group. [​IMG]
     
  10. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aaron:

    Since the old BB was lost, a lot of people may not be familiar with your position on the Bible and translations.

    Would you be good enough to articulate again your position? Thanks.
     
  11. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am bringing this topic back to the top so Kiffin can post his opinions and evidences to support them concerning his charge of errors in the KJV. Remember, this forum is not for arguments based on "It is wrong because I say it is wrong", or "It is right because I say it is right", or "The translators of my bible were more spiritual than the translators of your bible" etc., etc., etc. This forum is to evaluate the evidence regarding the charges of error. Have fun and rememgber, this is not a place for anger or name calling, but for honest and intelligent discussion of the issue at hand.
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok,

    I will give it a try then. I think that just about every translation of the Bible has totally messed up when they translate the Hebrew "YHWH" as "Jehovah" or "Lord". Here is my eveidence:

    1. YHWH is an Imperfect form of the ancient Hebrew Verb Hawa...which means to be. In the way it is presented in the original Hebrew, it is translated something like "I will be" or "I am". In the context of talking about the eternal God, it is appropriate to use this verb in the completed perfect tense, incompleted imperfect tense. The whole Idea in Exodus 2:14-15 is to remind them that the Great I am who is eternal and has been there for them in the past would be with them and would always be with them.

    2. There is a Hebrew word which actually means Lord, it is Adon. Not YHWH.

    3. In order for them to get YHWH translated as Lord, they had to go along with a legalistic perversion of YHWH started by the pharisees who were afraid of mispronouncing the name of YHWH and taking the divine name in vain. They added the vowel pointiongs for Adoni to the consonants YHWH to come up with the pronounciation Yahowa (Jehovah in modern day language). Then they just translated it as Lord. The truth is that Jehovah isn't really even a Biblical Hebrew word at all.

    Joseph
     
  13. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    I cannot agree that "LORD" is an incorrect translation of the Tetragrammaton. The four letter hebrew word (YHWH) indicates that God is timeless and infinite, for the letters of this Name are those of the words "He was, He is, and He will be." This Name appears in some Hebrew texts with the vowel points taken from Adonai. The Jews traditionally read this word aloud as "Hashem" which literally means "The Name."

    No English bible which I am aware of translates this Name as "Lord" but as "LORD" in all caps. This Name also appears several times in the Hebrew text with a prefix and is usually pronounced as a form of Adonai, I.E., badonai, Haadonai, vadonai, kadonai, ladonai, maadonai, and sheadonai.

    As it is a translation of a proper name, and not of the literal words meaning "He was, He is, and He will be", either "Jehovah", or "LORD" seems fine to me, just as the word for God, "Elohim" is the plural intensive of a form of the Hebrew word "el" meaning literally "to twist" with the idea of "made strong." When we read any bible we don't see "made strong" as a translation of God. [​IMG]

    [ May 01, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  14. Kiffin

    Kiffin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thomas,


    KJV "robbers of churches." Acts 19:37 but the word is actually hierulous "robbers of temples"

    KJV "Tithes of all I possess" Lk 18:12 when the Textus Receptus text should be translated "all I acquire"

    That is just a couple.

    Are You claiming Inerrancy for the KJV? Claiming the KJV has no errors? Do you hold as many Ruckmanites do that the KJV is perfect? If so you are making a claim the KJV translators didn't claim. Check out the article at http://www.communitybaptistchurch.com/Library/kjv_translators.html
     
  15. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: Acts 19:37

    The AV reading follows that of the earlier English Versions, including Tyndale and the Geneva. In former times the word "church" was used in a broader sense than it is now.

    "It was not unusual for the writers of the Elizabethan age to apply the term which we confine to Christian buildings, to heathen temples. They would speak of the 'church' of Diana, or the 'chapel' of Apollo" (E.H. Plumtre, Acts, Ellicotts N.T. Commentary).

    See the commentaries of Poole and Henry as an example of this.

    Nevertheless, it is remarkable that in the 71 New Testament occurrences of hieron, the AV always translates it "temple," including verse 27 of this same chapter -- "the temple of the great goddess Diana." But here, and in Romans 2:22 where it is also combined with sulos, 'temple" does not come into the translation.

    "Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? Thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?"

    In two other instances, hieros (the closely related masculine form) is found in combination:

    -- hierourgeo, "To labour in sacred things."

    " ... I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God ... " (Rom. 15:16).

    -- hieroprepees, "That which befits the sacred."

    "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness" (Titus 2:3).

    Therefore, it is not unlikely that a broader meaning is intended for hierosulos then strictly "robbers of heathen temples." Indeed, "The noun is more common than the verb for sacrilege in general ... In later comedy the word is used very loosely and generally with great exaggeration as a term of abuse" (Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament). Though this silversmith's trade had fallen on hard times, no one was suggesting for a moment that Paul and his associates actually stole from the Temple of Diana. The point the townclerk made was that they were not robbers of churches, i.e. "religious robbers," in the more general sense. Paul did not enrich himself through "religion," nor were the churches, which by this time were springing up throughout Asia Minor, a source of enrichment. The KJV wording highlights what has been the chief accusation (whether justified or not) of the unconverted from that day to this present day: "The preacher is in it for the money!"

    "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you" (2 Pet. 2:3). "Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?" (2 Cor. 12:9).

    This, Paul most certainly did not do! Yet, ponder the wording in 2 Corinthians 11.

    "Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service" (2 Cor. 11:7, 8).

    [​IMG]

    [ May 01, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  16. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    RE: Lk 18:12

    The Greek here reads "ktaomai" meaning to acquire, get, or procure a thing for one's self, to possess. It is a Present, Middle, Deponent, Indicative.

    It is the same word used in Luke 21:19, "In your patience possess ye your souls." and 1 Thess 4:4 "That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

    [​IMG]
     
  17. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
    Are You claiming Inerrancy for the KJV?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have made no such claim in anything other than the derivative sense. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Claiming the KJV has no errors?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have made so such claim. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do you hold as many Ruckmanites do that the KJV is perfect?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Only in the sense of it being "telion" or complete, mature. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If so you are making a claim the KJV translators didn't claim.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have made no such claim.

    [ May 01, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  18. Kiffin

    Kiffin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,191
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, Thomas you agree with me that the KJV has errors?
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course it has errors!!!!!!
     
  20. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
    So, Thomas you agree with me that the KJV has errors?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am still waiting for you to point out a confirmed error. Until you can come up with one, "deponent further sayeth not." [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...