Esau I HATED!!!!!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by webdog, Aug 22, 2005.

  1. webdog

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    I think if we (calvinist and non calvinist) could ever agree on the fact that God is love (1 John 4) and CANNOT be hate, the petals of TULIP would fall off.

    First, Jesus says in Matt 5:

    Jesus is telling us to love even our enemies. Are the "non elect" enemies of God , and does God hate all of those (including Esau) who are not elect? If God does indeed love His enemies (those who aren't elect), why would He NOT elect His creation, in whom He loves, if His very nature is love? First problem with God hates.

    1 John 2 tells us we can know we have come to know Him if we keep His commandments. The above scripture in Mattew 5 is clearly a command, no?

    So...if we keep His commands, in him the love of God has been truly perfected. This would make no sense that God commands us to love the very ones He hates, and in turn loves us for this! Verse 6 says we who abide in Him, SHOULD WALK IN THE SAME MANNER AS HE WALKED. We should be like Christ. How then can Christ tell us to love our enemies while He, both fully God and man, does not?

    If we have the "mind of Christ", and He commands us to love our enemies, He obviously does, too.

    "The one who does not love doesn not know God"? Does this mean that God doesn't know Himself?!

    It is not in God's nature to hate His creation, only the actions of His creation, as evidenced throughout the Bible.

    1 John 3:14-15 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."

    If we are to love even our enemies, and we are not allowed to hate our brother, who are we allowed to hate? What happens to those who hate? Jesus OBVIOUSLY hated noone! If Jesus hated noone, that means God the Father could ALSO hate NOONE!

    Conclusion: The "hating" of Esau CANNOT be the same hate in the above verses.
     
  2. TexasSky

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    Esau was a rebellious man. God did not hate him first, causing him to become rebellious. God hated his behavior after he became rebellious.
     
  3. Jarthur001

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    I think if we (calvinist and non calvinist) could ever agree on the fact that God is love (1 John 4) and CANNOT be hate, the petals of TULIP would fall off.
    ******************************
    and then have what?? red roses? red roses mean love right? that's what me wife tells me. hehe

    First, Jesus says in Matt 5:

    Jesus is telling us to love even our enemies. Are the "non elect" enemies of God , and does God hate all of those (including Esau) who are not elect? If God does indeed love His enemies (those who aren't elect), why would He NOT elect His creation, in whom He loves, if His very nature is love? First problem with God hates.
    ****************************
    You make some points here, but if we are going to get to the bottom of it all lets consider it ALL.

    Love is one attribute as well as the attribute of being just, and all knowing. There are many other attributes we can place under Gods name.

    More toward your point, God is more then just a God of love. He is more than full of love. He is the very essence of love itself from where all love comes from. Without Gods love, we would not know of love in any form. But there is something greater then Gods love we must look at. SOVEREIGN.

    Sovereign places all the power and wisdom of God into his attributes. If God was not self-existence, self-sufficient and could not rule in absolute authority over His creation, then His attribute of love would useless to us. The fact that he is Sovereign, means we can count on His love being there for us. Gods Sovereign makes Gods love pure.

    If God is Sovereign this means he can do as he wishes. If there is a passages that does not jive with our limited understanding we have of God, we should not change the Bible to make it fit our understanding. We must UNDERSTAND we do not understnad it all and take the bible as it is stated.

    God is in fact LOVE. But he is much more then love. If you stop at this fact you get a wrong view of God. The Children of Israel made a golden calf to show the power of God. God hated this for it only show Gods power. God is MANY things and we can never get the full picture. If we just say God is love..and look at your passage to change the word hate to anything other than to mean hate is WRONG.

    read the passage again.

    mercy...no mercy
    love......?

    You choose the word you like best..but do not change the context.


    In Christ...James
     
  4. Monergist

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    Webdog,

    What do you do with Psalm 5:5 which states that God hates all workers of iniquity?
     
  5. Jarthur001

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    So God hated Paul too?

    Lets talk about grace..
     
  6. Monergist

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    Romans 9 tells a very different story:

     
  7. Jarthur001

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    Romans 9 tells a very different story:

    </font>[/QUOTE]Why is it that so many Arminians HATE Romans 9?
     
  8. BobRyan

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    As James has said "So God hated Paul too??".

    In fact when God saw this fallen world and decided to "SO LOVE" and to "SO GIVE" such that we might be saved - did He see a world of wicked sinful humanity or righteous saintly humanity?

    If Psalms 5 is FIRST in the context of "God so LOVED that HE GAVE..." then the "workers of inquity" are those that refuse salvation though FULLY ENABLED to accept it. And even for THESE God says "I HAVE no PLEASURE in the death of ANYONE - OH WHY WILL you DIE?!! Turn to Me and LIVE!!"

    In 1Cor 2:16 – we are told that we have been given “the Mind of Christ”. What then is the Mind of Christ regarding love for the lost?

    When the “impartial (Rom 2:11) unchanging (Mal 3:6) God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation just as He loves the saved and ministers to them, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

    God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

    Lament over Jerusalem
    God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.
    God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.
    ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

    God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!
    In Christ,

    Bob

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Correcting the errors that Calvinists inject into Romans 9 - is not "hating Romans 9".

    Rather it is "loving the truth" and favoring exegesis over the "snippet and duck" tactics of some (Let me see -- JohnP comes to mind on that one).

    How is that "hating" Romans 9??

    More than that - the point of this thread is to argue that God "really DID" so Love the World.

    You have said in the past - that you agree with that 100% -- no marketeering or downsizing the Gospel in your earlier statment that God really does love ALL -- every single one.

    Are you changing your position on that?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. philg

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    Does this mean that God denies the salvation of those who commit iniquity.?

    (Notice he says “all workers”) see Psalm 51:2 - did God not love david? Did God desire Davids salvation? See psalm 51:9 -

    Was David a worker of iniquity? See Psalm 51:5 -- were you and I and everyone shapen in iniquity?

    Read Jermiaha 3:13 - If we aknowledge our iniquity do we receive the blessings of God? Read psalm 103:3--can iniquity be forgiven? (see also Pslam 130:3-4

    Titus 2:14 - can we be redeemed from all iniquity?

    Isa 53:5 -- was Jesus bruised for our iniquity?

    So how do we understand psalm 5:5?

    So how do we understand psalm 5:5?

    Lets let scripture interpret scripture. If you read a little further in psalm 5:10 david says “ Destroy thou them,oh God; let them fall by their own counsel; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

    Again, consistent with biblical doctrine, God desires salvation for all;but those who reject him, he can and does punish.
     
  11. philg

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    Romans 9 tells a very different story:

    </font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist would have us to believe that before Esau was ever born, that God hated him and predestined him to hell. However this is not what the scripture teaches.
    (1) When God spoke of Jacob and Esau in this passage, he was speaking of them in their national capacities, not individually. We know this because it is stated that the elder shall serve the younger.
    23 And the LORD said unto her,
    Two nations are in thy womb,
    and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels;
    and the one people shall be stronger than the other people;
    and the elder shall serve the younger

    Gen 25:23

    Esau never served Jacob , but his descendents, the Edomites did. See 1 sam 14:47, 2 sam 8:14, 1 kings 11:15-16 , 1kings 22:47 and 2 kings 14:7.

    2) Hatred in this verse is not absolute but relative to a higher choice. See luke 14:26 . Are we to hate our mother and father? Of course not, its only that we are to love Jesus more.

    See john 12:25 . Do we hate our life here? Or is it that we should prefer life in heaven with Jesus? So we see that hate is not always used in a absolute sense but is also used in a realitive sense to a higher choice.

    (3) Esau was hated (in this sense rejected ,rather) as the line thru whom Jesus would come.

    4)When God said Esau have I hated, Paul was quoting from Malachi 1:2-4. Again, this was speaking of them in their national capacities. It is not true, as Calvinism would have us believe, that God hated Esau before he was born. (5) Esau himself committed apostasy, and many of his descendants did also, but it cannot be said that they are part of a world that God did not love but rather part of a world that rejected God and his salvation whom God as righteous judge had to punish.
     
  12. Monergist

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    Thanks for your response. When I have a little more time, I'll try to address some of your questions.

    I was merely asking Webdog to evaluate some of his claims from the OP in light of this passage; claims such as:
     
  13. Jarthur001

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    Correcting the errors that Calvinists inject into Romans 9 - is not "hating Romans 9".

    Rather it is "loving the truth" and favoring exegesis over the "snippet and duck" tactics of some (Let me see -- JohnP comes to mind on that one).

    How is that "hating" Romans 9??

    More than that - the point of this thread is to argue that God "really DID" so Love the World.

    You have said in the past - that you agree with that 100% -- no marketeering or downsizing the Gospel in your earlier statment that God really does love ALL -- every single one.

    Are you changing your position on that?

    In Christ,

    Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]1st of all bob....you need to read johnp a little closer.


    having said that...yes i do hold to the FACT that God does love the world. I can not over look this.

    more on that latter...i need to run to UPS...


    [​IMG]
     
  14. TexasSky

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    JArthur,

    First - I never said God hates anyone.
    That is a calvinist view point.
    I said God hates the behavior of some.

    Second - I don't hate Romans 9.
    I just don't read hate into the way you Calvinists do.

    The bible says, point blank, GOD IS LOVE.

    You can try to twist that, you can try to avoid that. You can try to justify your view that he didn't MEAN that, but it won't change what the bible says. GOD IS LOVE.
     
  15. Scott J

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    In context:
    If this doesn't mean that God hated Esau for His own purposes then what does it mean?

    Contextually, the decision to hate Esau was made before he was born. God favored Jacob from conception.

    God is love. True... however, love is not God. God also has wrath, justice, judgment, etc.
     
  16. Scott J

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    Did anyone ever suggest that He was hate?

    Do you think that His being love and being able to hate are mutually exclusive things?

    I will not "agree" to anything that contradicts scripture- and it declares that God can hate.
     
  17. TexasSky

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    Scott,

    A Calvinist seems to say, "God hated you, the individual, and because he hates you, you're not even offered the chance to repent."

    Everyone else says, "God loved you, but you refused His love." This second group is divided into two camps. Camp 1 - BECAUSE you refused God's love, He hates you. Camp 2 - Even though you refused God's love, He still loved you.

    One thing I notice is that you Calvinists keep pointing to that one verse in Romans 9 which is really a quote of one old testament verse, then you fail to go back and actually study the old testament parts. Esau was NOT a godly man. He was offered the same benefits his brother was offered, and He ignored God. When I read "Esau I hated and Jacob I loved," I read a Father saying, "I loved the child that obeyed, I hated that the other child because they did not obey."
    When you read it, you read, "I loved one child and so they were good, I hated one child, and so they were bad."

    You put the cart before the horse.

    Because Romans 9 refers back to the old testament, you are really only taking ONE verse out of the entire bible to build an image of God as hate.

    And yet - the bible itself says, "God is love."
    It says, "God so loved the world".
    It says God desires that none perish.
    It speaks over and over and over about a God of love, a God of patience, a God of forgiveness, a God of mercy.

    You ignore ALL of that, to cling to ONE old testament verse.

    If we all lived by the old testament only, NONE would be saved.

    CHRIST is our light.
    CHRIST is our savior.

    CHRIST said he came to save the world, not to condemn it.

    Yet, you keep preaching He condemned it already, and that you can't even BE saved unless you were chosen before the dawn of time to be saved. So, I stand on the premise, what you teach makes a lie of the entire story of Christ.

    For if God decided, before the dawn of time, to hate many men, and to not even offer salvation to them, Christ lied when he said he came to save the lost. Because by your theory, the only lost were the ones God chose to never offer salvation to.

    You claim you stand on scripture, while you ignore the majority of scripture.
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    Hi texas,

    Gods love is so pure, that God would NEVER send any one He loves to Hell would he?
     
  19. Jarthur001

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    Does God hate?
    God would never send anyone He loved to Hell. Right? I am sure all would agree. So if he would not send those he LOVES to hell, yet we all know there is a hell, who does he send to hell?

    Does God love the fallen angels that He made?

    Does God Hate????????


    "Learn then that I, I alone, am God, and there is no god besides me. It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand there is no rescue. "To the heavens I raise my hand and swear: As surely as I live forever, I will sharpen my flashing sword, and my hand shall lay hold of my quiver. "With vengeance I will repay my foes and requite those who hate me." " [Dt. 32:39-41]

    15 And truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey. And Jehovah saw [it], and it was evil in his sight that there was no judgment. 16 And he saw that there was no man, and he wondered that there was no intercessor; and his arm brought him salvation, and his righteousness, it sustained him. 17 And he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on garments of vengeance [for] clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak. 18 According to deeds, so will he repay: fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence [Is. 59:15-18]


    "You are not a god who delights in evil; no wicked person finds refuge with you; the arrogant cannot stand before you. You [God] hate all who do evil;" [Ps. 5:4-5]

    "Into your hands I commend my spirit; you will redeem me, LORD, faithful God. You hate those who serve worthless idols, but I trust in the LORD." [Ps. 31:5-6]

    "Your throne, O God, stands forever; your royal scepter is a scepter for justice. You love justice and hate wrongdoing; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellow kings. [Ps. 45:6-7]

    "For I hate divorce, says the LORD, the God of Israel, And covering one's garment with injustice, says the LORD of hosts; You must then safeguard life that is your own, and not break faith." [Mal. 2:16]

    "Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You {Jesus} loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions"; [Heb. 1:8-9]

    "But you have this in your favor: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I {Jesus} also hate. " ' "Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor I will give the right to eat from the tree of life that is in the garden of God." ' [Rv. 2:6-7]




    It is because God's love can turn to hate that He is to be feared. It is prudent to fear (have great respect for) the power of God.


    "Then the just shall rejoice to see the vengeance and bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked." [Ps. 58:10]

    Then it will be said: "Truly there is a reward for the just; there is a God who is judge on earth!" [Ps. 58:11-12]

    "But this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, vengeance on his foes! — The sword devours, is sated, drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts holds a slaughter feast" [Jer. 46:10]

    "My vengeance upon Edom I will entrust to my people Israel, who will deal with Edom in accordance with my anger and my fury; thus they shall know my vengeance, says the Lord GOD." [Eze. 25:14]

    "A jealous and avenging God is the LORD, an avenger is the LORD, and angry; The LORD brings vengeance on his adversaries, and lays up wrath for his enemies;" [Nahum 1:2]

    of how much worse punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and esteemed the blood of the covenant, whereby he has been sanctified, common, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that said, To me [belongs] vengeance; *I* will recompense, saith the Lord: and again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 [It is] a fearful thing falling into [the] hands of [the] living God. [Heb. 10:29-31]


    4 And he says to them, Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill? But they were silent. 5 And looking round upon them with anger, distressed at the hardening of their heart, he says to the man, Stretch out thy hand. And he stretched [it] out, and his hand was restored. [Mk. 3:4-5]

    ********* Wrath

    "He said to the crowds who came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce good fruits as evidence of your repentance; and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones." [Lk. 3:7-8]

    "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." [Jn 3:36]

    "The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them." [Rm. 1:18-19]

    "Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God," [Rm. 2:4-5]

    "God must be true, though every human being is a liar, as it is written: "That you may be justified in your words, and conquer when you are judged." But if our wickedness provides proof of God's righteousness, what can we say? Is God unjust, humanly speaking, to inflict his wrath? Of course not! For how else is God to judge the world?" [Rm. 3:4-6]

    "What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?" [Rm. 9:22]

    "But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience." [Rm. 13:4-5]


    "Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient." [Eph. 5:5-6]

    "Because of these the wrath of God is coming (upon the disobedient)." [Col. 3:6]

    "As I swore in my wrath, "They shall not enter into my rest." ' "Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living God." [Heb. 3:11-12]

    "Out of his mouth came a sharp sword to strike the nations. He (Jesus)will rule them with an iron rod, and he himself will tread out in the wine press the wine of the fury and wrath of God the almighty." [Rev. 19:15]

    ***********vengeance

    "So Moses told the people, "Select men from your midst and arm them for war, to attack the Midianites and execute the LORD'S vengeance on them." [Nm. 31:3]

    "Now, therefore, says the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel: Ah! I will take vengeance on my foes and fully repay my enemies!" [Is. 1:24]

    "A jealous and avenging God is the LORD, an avenger is the LORD, and angry; The LORD brings vengeance on his adversaries, and lays up wrath for his enemies;" [Nahum 1:2]

    "We know the one who said: "vengeance is mine; I will repay," and again: "The Lord will judge his people." [Heb. 10:30]


    Does God sent those he loves to hell? If not who does he send?

    Why would God teach about salvation if there are no consequences for sin?



    "A bruised reed he will not break,
    a smoldering wick he will not quench,
    until he brings justice to victory." [Mt. 12:20]




    39 Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." 40 Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, "Are we also blind?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains. [Jn. 9:39-41]


    Some say that one sends oneself to Hell. In one sense this is true. But No one willingly places himself into a condition of pain and eternal suffering. Just as the fallen angels were rounded up and forced into the eternal pool of fire, so will it be with all who are found guilty. They will be sent to (forced into) Hell at the judgement of God. Some will cry out...BUT I WENT TO Church. Some will say..I preached for you. God will say..I never knew you.


    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed,
    into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." [Mt. 25:41]

    " 'Now as for those enemies of mine who did not want me as their king,
    bring them here and slay them before me.' " [Lk. 19:26-27]

    "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom
    all who cause others to sin and all evildoers." [Mt. 13:41]

    "The king was enraged and sent his troops,
    destroyed those murderers,
    and burned their city." [Mt. 22:7]

    ". . . then he will send out the angels and gather (his) elect
    from the four winds,
    from the end of the earth to the end of the sky." [Mk. 13:27]

    God in warth is not a pretty picture, but one to be feared. Notice "I tear you in pieces"

    16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? 17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee. 18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers. 19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. 20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son. 21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. 22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. 23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God. (Psalms 50)

    Notice the reaping with a sickle of the sinners. Blood all over the place. This is not a God that loves these guys.


    And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Rev 14

    Notice the blood dipping from his vesture...below


    His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (Rev 19)

    Is God only about Love? Gods love is great..i agree. But does God HATE sinners?


    In Christ..James
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    In your arguments here I am missing the part where you say "yes God does not hate anyone - He loves everyone -- even the wicked that do not go to heaven".

    Why is that part missing?

    How do your arguments for hate (connected with justice of course) fit in with your "God does not hate anyone but loves everyone" idea?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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