Esau I HATED!!!!!

One has to assume that being lost - going to hell - being the wicked that refuse salvation is "as far as it goes" for humans. There is no "other hell" to be sent to.

So lets see what God says about those who are seeking a way to get to hell --

In 1Cor 2:16 – we are told that we have been given “the Mind of Christ”. What then is the Mind of Christ regarding love for the lost?

When the “impartial (Rom 2:11) unchanging (Mal 3:6) God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation just as He loves the saved and ministers to them, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Lament over Jerusalem

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!

 

In the texts previous quoted we see God weeping over the fact that He must send those He loves to Hell.

How is that not answering your question?

In Christ,

Bob

 

JArthur,

You asked if God hates those who go to hell, and said if He doesn't hate, why does He send.

I'm sorry, but that is such a limited, human view. Not just human, but "modern" human view.

There is God, the supreme ruler of the entire universe, and there is Satan, the rebel who tried to overthrow the King of Kings.

Man, in his stupidity, followed the rebel.
God, in His love and mercy, said, "I love you, and I will forgive you, even though you followed the rebel, if you will follow me, and turn from the rebel. I offer a royal pardon for all your traitorous behavior."

Men who accept the love and forgiveness and mercy of God, become reinstated in good standing with the King of King, and serve in His army without any blemish marking them. Their traitorous behavior totally erased. No one even points at them and says, "You were a traitor."

Men who look at God and say, "I don't want your pardon! I will follow my leader into hell!" Do exactly that - they follow their leader straight into hell.

 

In your arguments here I am missing the part where you say "yes God does not hate anyone - He loves everyone -- even the wicked that do not go to heaven".

Why is that part missing?

How do your arguments for hate (connected with justice of course) fit in with your "God does not hate anyone but loves everyone" idea?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob,

Was this one post about Gods love? I'll help you on this one..NO

This kills me the misleading that goes on in this forum. I do much better face to face.

Now i must post this reply......

Look to the post before this post and see if you can tell WHY i posted 100 verse showing GOD can hate. Its like some people just do not want to read the full Bible.

Now the meassage of the Bible..of the gospel is that Christ has come. The light of life is here. Trun from your wicked ways and come to a loving God. LOOK AND LIVE!!!! For God so love the world that he came..... Christ can redeem you from the slave market of SIN...with his own blood.

There are MANY more verse on Gods love. This is what i preach. Yet i know of many other things of God.

You seem to not want to hear these other things. Or..you want to change the meaning. This is sad. God is..what He is. I take all the passages at face value. You hate the word hate for to you it is a ugly picture of your LORD. You hate for anyone to say...God can hate...yet it is not I, but the Bible. Most of my post was just verses. I added very few words.

I didn't like putting together a bunch of verse showing this...but you and others run from the word or change it. yet its there....and this you hate. and that is why i said..you HATE romans 9. For all i see you do is try and change the meaning. You do not help it. You change from God hating a man...to God hating a whole people. Now texas has placed all the hate on a whole people that GOD WILL ALWAYS HATE. I take it for face value and God hated one person in romans 9. I take it face value when it says God can hate anything.

Anyway...you tell me..was my post about Gods love?

If not...does this mean i do not believe in Gods love?

In Christ...James

 

Texas,

I have no problem with this view. Now...when the Bible says God hates..this that and the other...and sinners. what does this mean?

Its hard to say..is it not? I mean I preach Gods love. I preach the gosple. I preach the GOOD NEWS..for God does love the world and wishes all to be saved. Yet the other side of this is...God is HOLY...and hates sins. YOU MUST REPENT!! God will send sinners to hell. Who made hell? Are sins sent to hell, or sinners? Who rips the wicked apart? Is this love? Who uses a sickle to harvest the sinners? is this love?

I'll stop on this point from here on out. I do not like to keep posting verses on Gods hate. notice no one addressed them. You tell a pretty story and Bob post verse on Gods love. Great story...better verse. but nothing on the point


In Christ...James

 

Hello James.

Not so James they just love the word less but never hate.

Many times now I have heard it said that Esau is not being spoken of but Edom is. Now how hating a nation is any less than hating a man is quite something to figure out.

HaHa!

Hello webdog.

If you think that Calvinists believe God is hate you are wrong and you need to stop spreading rumours. A lie is a lie regardless of who it is aimed at. The Tulip will never wilt: ...and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. A thousand years of pure hatred was directed at the Church by people that knew how to persecute. Little ole you webdog has no chance of bringing it down.

In the last ten years I have taught my daughters to love their mother and in that time there has been no disagreement to speak of with her over their upbringing. I love my daughters and I taught them what was best for them but their mother, who I divorced ten years ago, is far from loved by me. I have a working relationship with her that benefits my children and it is for my children that I taught them to love a person who I love less.
Your analogies do not work. They are always based on what man does. God cannot be dealt with on what you think but on what He says.
If we have the "mind of Christ", and He commands us to love our enemies, He obviously does, too.

Hello TexasSky.

RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What you say is just a straight forward denial of scripture. before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad

john.

 

Greetings all

This is an incredible string. Did God hate Esau? Posts bouncing back and forth over God's attributes of love versus hate.

TexasSky made a good but feeble attempt to go to the OT context. Why not take this thought further? What is God trying to do here! !

Bob Ryan made a noble implication to look to a harmonizing technique. Why not go further and simply make the declaration of the distinction and similarities between justification and sanctification? While justification is the chief doctrine of the church, the [Jacob/Esau love/hate] thing does not apply here.

How is it that none of you so-called scholars have seen that God is choosing between Jacob and Esau for the purposes of creating national Israel through which the Promised Seed would come?

The election is not personal, it is national. This is the Calvinists big mistake. One cannot use Jacob and Esau as proof of God's personal elections.

Much harm comes when one does not see or honor God's eschatological purpose being fulfilled in history.

Lloyd

 

TS, Under real calvinism (not the mischaracterization you portray), man not only has the chance to repent, he has a responsibility to repent.

We shouldn't really care what "everyone else says". We should care a) what scripture says and b) what is factually true.

It is factually true that not everyone who dies and goes to hell "refused His love". Some never knew anything of His love. All they had/have is the law written in their hearts referred to in Romans 2.

The law reveals man's guilt but it alone will not introduce grace.

More later.

 

Ascund,

I didn't take it further because this thread is repeated over and over and over and over on this board, and since it is the same people who keep bringing up the lie that God hates - I see no reason to keep repeating the truth over and over and over. They just ignore it. They never address it. They dance around it.

 

Hey TexasSky

Sigh!

I understand all to well. Calvinists have bought the party line so firmly that they resist all attempts to open their eyes to scripture.

They fail to acknowledge the natural conclusions of their presuppositions. In fact, they defend their warped view by quoting our best verses! Hence, they hide their error by saying "YES" and "NO" in the same sentence. A truly amazing feat!

Election is particular: Jesus.
Election is universal: by faith.

Lloyd

 

Scott J,

According to what any and every Calvinist, you included, has said to me, in person or on this board, depending on the person, the Calvinist view is that God does NOT really offer salvation to all people.

Ergo - when you say that man has a chance to repent - you contradict yourself.

What I, and many others like myself, say, over and over is that man DOES have a chance to repent.

The elect are those who DO repent.
They BECOME elect BECAUSE they repent.

It is not, as Calvinism teaches, because they were elected they can repent.

The view that those of us who are NOT followers of Calvin is that God's word is true. God offered pardon and peace to ~all~ men, and those who reject God end up in hell.

We reject the view that God never gave those in hell the chance to repent.

 

Is salvation offered to every person TS? Are you trying to suggest that every person who ever lived was offered salvation? If you believe that no one comes to the Father but by Jesus then you must admit that the truthful answer to both of these questions is "NO".

People still die everyday without hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is a simple, undeniable truth.

Not at all. Romans 1 tells us that even nature declares God such that men have no excuse for not repenting. Not the same as the "chance to have salvation" but rather the obligation to submit to the perfect moral laws of God.

Romans 2 tells us that even those who never hear the law have enough of the law written on their hearts that God can righteously judge them guilty for not repenting.

Yes. But he won't.

In connection, I have repeatedly asked you why one person does repent and accept Christ while another does not.

That is not what the Bible says. See 1 Peter 1:2. We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God. 1 Thess 3:4 says: "4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." You cannot reconcile this verse with what you said above. To elect = to choose. Eph 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Did we repent before the foundation of the world?

Your first statement is correct. Your second one contradicts the definitions of the words used to state it.

Yes, scripturally, it is.

Except the parts that deal with election and God's sovereignty over who He saves and who He leaves in rebellion. Those parts you don't accept as true but rather need to redefine the very words themselves.

Calvinism struggles somewhat with "world" and "all". But both of those words have contextual meanings. If you said "all of my family is coming over for Christmas", would that mean everyone you are related to in the whole world? No. If someone said "I have all I ever wanted", would we consider that a lie because they probably wanted a piece of candy they didn't get as a child? No.

The reason I accept calvinism in principle is that it is the best explanation I have seen for the whole of what the Bible says about salvation. Once I dropped my presuppositions about what was "fair" and really accepted the fact that no one deserves a chance for salvation, it became much easier just to accept all of what the Bible says rather than trying to explain certain passages out of existence the way non-calvinists do.

That is a statement that can easily be proven untrue. There are people living in Islamic nations at this moment who will die before the day is done without ever hearing the clear gospel of Christ.

Calvinists certainly believe that God made the gospel available and public. We believe that the guilt of the law is manifest in each person. But not all people reject God's offer. Many rebel against God's law and are thus condemned without ever hearing the "offer" even once.

So do I. All men have knowledge of the Law written on their hearts even if they have never heard the Law. They are a law unto themselves and have a responsibility under the law to repent.

The fact is however that not all men hear the gospel or feel the specific convicting power that causes them to believe it.

 

I started out pretty close to what TS says she believes. But try as I might, I found myself needing to ignore some scriptures or redefine the words of scripture in order to maintain my belief. I was troubled by doubts about my own salvation because of the teaching that it was something I had done of my own strength that saved me rather than something God had ultimately chosen to do. I knew that I fail. But peace came when I realized that my salvation was caused by One whose will never fails.

Try me.

While you are at it, perhaps you can tell me why under your system one person repents while another does not. Here are the only two answers I can imagine. Feel free to add any others that actually answer the question: a) God regenerates some according to His own pleasure leaving them freed from the bondage of sin and death to believe or b) there is something good within those who are saved independent of anything that God did that causes them to believe.

All decisions are actions and all actions have an ultimate cause. Your system denies grace since it has salvation hinging upon a "good" decision by man rather than a "good" decision by God.

Paul said it better than I can: For by grace (unmerited favor) are ye saved through faith (substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen): and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works (a decision is a process rendering a result- work) lest any man should boast.

 

Yes, salvation is offered to every person. Why is it "truthful" that everyone cannot benefit from Christ's death? Abraham believed and it was credited as righteousness. What did he bleieve in? That God would send His Lamb as a sacrifice for him.</font>[/QUOTE] Evasion again? Abraham was chosen before He believed. Read his story for yourself.

THIS IS NOT SIMPLE, UNDENIABLE TRUTH! Are you omnipotent and omnipresent? HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? You don't, and can't. Quit claiming falasies.</font>[/QUOTE] I am not claiming "fallacies". People die without hearing the gospel and you have to make up some sort of "fallacy" or rather "fantasy" not mentioned in scripture or known by experience to claim that they don't.

Again, another false statement. You have no knowledge of this, so do not insinuate that you do.</font>[/QUOTE] This is one of the reasons I stopped believing as you all do. You have to deny what is and what scripture says in order to maintain what you have presupposed to be true.

You contradict yourself with these two statements. What is the Law?</font>[/QUOTE] No contradiction. Just acceptance of what the Bible says. The law is precepts created and handed down by God. Romans 2 and 3 tells us that the Jews had the special privilege of receiving the Law directly. Romans 1 and 2 tell us that everyone else is responsible because God has revealed it to them through nature and their own conscience.

The Law made men guilty. Romans 5. BTW, Romans 5 is an excellent cross reference to the "all" passages you find so appealing. Romans 5 specifically talks about "grace" and "the gift"... and it is abounded to "many" in vs 18 and came upon "all" in vs 18. This is the effectual call contrasted with the general call.

Note vs 16 as well, the free gift is of "many offences", not all offences.

Because the Law can't save. The Bible tells us that plainly and I am surprised that you couldn't answer that question for yourself. You err not knowing the scriptures.

It takes the gospel to save through the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit.

I deny that you have shown the smallest hint of a contradiction.

 

So Romans 9 is a lie? It clearly says that God hated Esau. Is that a lie or do your presuppositions simply require you to deny this scripture in order to maintain what you have decided to believe?

 

Scott J,

You take one verse of the bible, out of context, without studying its full meaning, and use it to endorse the lie you want to believe. In doing so, you totally ignore VOLUMES and VOLUMES of scripture that SHOW you are twisting it into a lie.

Romans 9 is a reference to an old testament text. If you go back to a study bible and look up the old testament verse you discover that it reads that Esau was wicked, and Jacob was obedient. Esau did not care about the laws of God, Jacob did. It reads, in the old testament, that God rejected (and hated) Esau BECAUSE Esau rejected and hated God.

BUT, if you don't know the story of Jacob and Esau, and you don't read the scriptures that Paul was referring to when he WROTE Romans 9, you find the lie that you believe.

THIS is why people NEED TO REALLY READ THE WHOLE WORD and NOT just bits and pieces of it.

You cannot read the whole New Testament and not KNOW that God is a loving God. You cannot read the four gospels and come away thinking that God wanted men to perish. You can ONLY come away with the view that God is full of hate if you lift one verse out of context, and read it without having a CLUE to the foundations behind it.

The verse in Romans 9 means BECAUSE EASU REJECTED THE WILL OF GOD, GOD HATED HIM.

WHICH is EXACTLY what 2 Thessalonians says: " for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. "

Which is no surprise at all. Amazingly, God doesn't contradict God.

AND if - for ONE SECOND - you were right in reading it like you do, then it would mean that PAUL was the liar, because the one who said God loved the world was GOD HIMSELF. If Paul contradicted that, then PAUL was lieing, NOT God.

But Paul doesn't contradict God. Paul would be HORRIFIED to know that people were using his name to spread the lie that God is full of hate.

You say, God hated so men hate God.
The BIBLE says, God loved until men hated.

 

Greetings

What silliness. Grace is the basis of the plan of redemption. Unless God moved first to redeem us from sin, no one would be saved. Have you never noticed that the active voices of justification all pertain to God alone? Have you never noticed that the passive voices of justification all pertain to humans alone? Have you never tried to harmonize these? Humans passively receive God’s gift of eternal life through faith. It is not an active work – that is God’s domain.

Your wild extreme statements must come from ignorance. After all, why would you quote verses that support my view (Eph 2:8-10)?? Salvation is a gift. A gift is not a gift if it is crammed down your throat – even if it is a good gift. Or do you merely quote verses without knowing what they say?

In actuality, it is your system that denies grace. An arbitrary election is only grace for those who were arbitrarily elected. What do those who weren’t arbitrarily elected call it? But you are so steeped in denominational rhetoric that you are blind to the simple ramifications of your unbalanced view of sovereignty.

Lloyd