Eschatology of the Post-Apostolic Church

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by KenH, Apr 20, 2003.

  1. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Thanks for the link. Sure it will confuse more about the imminent return of the Lord. Let's watch the tribulation unfold, count seven years, and we'll know EXACTLY the "day and the hour" when Jesus has to return.

    Why does THAT not make sense? :eek:
     
  3. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's why it is so dangerous to take symbolic language and try to force it into a specific speculative scenario and ironclad time frame, as we tend to take such a scenario and back into all kinds of bad eschatology.
     
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Jesus said he would come and establish the kingdom before his contemporary generation died (Matthew 16:27-28). He said his coming would occur, without fail, in his generation (Matthew 24:29-34). This language of imminence permeates the New Testament.

    Jesus said his coming, in the kingdom, would not be a visible event (Luke 17:20-21: “The kingdom does not come with observation.” He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

    Before his ascension, Jesus told his disciples, “In a little while, the world will see me no more” (John 14:19). Just how long is, “No more”? However, he told his disciples he would manifest himself to them. Judas asked how he would manifest himself to them, but not the world. Jesus said he would manifest himself through a personal relationship with those who believe in him (John 14:23).

    Jesus said his coming would be, “In the glory of the Father” (Matthew 16:27). This means his Coming would be in the same manner as his father had come many times. The Father committed all judgment to the Son, and the Son would act as the Father had acted in judgment (John 5:19-23).

    God had come many times. He used Babylon to judge Judah in B. C. 586. It was called the Day of the Lord (Ezekiel 7). Assyria destroyed Egypt and Isaiah said Jehovah rode a cloud into Egypt in judgment (Isaiah 19-20). When the Medes destroyed Babylon, “heaven and earth” was destroyed (Isaiah 13:9f), but the language was not fulfilled literally. Anytime God acted in history, to judge a people, it was His parousia! He came by means of armies or “natural” disasters, to demonstrate His Deity. Jesus was to come in the glory of the Father. For Jesus to come in the glory of the Father meant he was not coming literally, visibly.

    Jesus’ coming — as the Father had come — occurred when Jesus used the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant World of Israel, at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 (Matthew 24:2-3, 29-34). “Every eye” saw him when he came in judgment of those who pierced him (Revelation 1:7).

    The end of the age came when the Jerusalem Temple was destroyed (Matthew 24:2-3). What age did the Temple represent? Not the church age. It represented the Old Covenant Age. That age ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The present Church Age, is unending (Ephesians 3:20-21). Any suggestion that the current age is about to end is false.

    Jesus was offered the literal kingship over Israel, but he rejected that offer. Only when Jesus rejected Israel did Israel then reject Jesus (John 6:15). Jesus rejected that literal kingdom because from the beginning, a literal kingship was a symbol of rebellion against Jehovah (1 Samuel 8:8f).

    The restoration of national Israel in 1948 is not a sign of the end. It has nothing to do with prophecy. My book, Israel: 1948, Countdown to Nowhere, proves this beyond doubt. Israel was in unbelief in 1948. God never promised to restore Israel in unbelief.

    Jesus said the Gospel would be preached into all the world before his coming. The New Testament writers say the Gospel was preached into all the world in the first century (Romans 16:25-26, Colossians 1:5-7, 23).

    “Babylon” of Revelation had killed the prophets, Jesus and his apostles (Revelation 16:6f; 11:8; 18:20, 24). Jesus said old Jerusalem killed the prophets. Jerusalem killed Jesus and his apostles (Matthew 21-23). Jerusalem, not Iraq, was Babylon, and “Babylon” fell in A.D. 70.
    The end of the age is not near. It is past.

    Christ kept his word and came in the glory of the Father, in the termination of the Old Covenant Age of Israel in A.D. 70. There is no need to fear the future. There is a brighter, more confident day ahead if we will reject the “end times” paranoia, and rethink the misguided notion that Israel remains the key to a future end time drama.

    Part of an article.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have heard of this teaching before, Grasshopper. So, is this a never-ending age? According to this teaching, what happens in the future? :confused:
     
  6. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
  7. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, Grasshopper. I found this on the second link you gave -

    How is it that the Thessalonians thought that the second coming had already happened? If they viewed the nature of these things as literal how on earth could they have thought that they already happened? If their concept of the second coming was an earth burning, heaven melting, globe changing event how could they have thought it had already happened? If Paul was teaching the second coming as an earth burning, heaven melting, globe changing event all he would have had to say to the Thessalonians is "hello" look out your windows the earth is not on fire, the sky is still blue. Paul never corrects their idea of the nature of the second coming he simple says it has not happened yet. They must have viewed the nature of the second coming differently that we do.

    I am by no means endorsing this view but I find the above to be a good, thought-provoking question. [​IMG]
     
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
  9. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks. At the moment, I am finding it hard to rule out any particular eschatological viewpoint, except for the dispensational brand of premillennialism. I am finding eschatology to be about as easy to grab a hold of, and settle on one school of thought as being the correct one, as a greased pig. [​IMG]
     
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    I know the feeling. Since I really started studying this the first to go was the one I grew up believing, Pre-Millinnial Dispensation.

    The first link I gave you has some great teaching on the 70 weeks of Daniel.
     
  11. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen, Grasshopper!

    But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. ~Matthew 10:23
     
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    The Thessalonians believed that PART of the 2nd coming events had taken place and they were upset. Of course, they could look around and see that the very real prophecies of Revelation's "hell on earth" had not come yet, but they were confused about what STARTED that terrible Tribulation - the rapture of the believers.

    So Paul straightens them out about the rapture, it was still future and THEN the man of sin would be revealed etc etc etc

    Very real, clear, specific, literal language. To "spiritualize" or "allegorize" it leads one down the path to typical catholic eschatology . . and that's not for me! :rolleyes:

    (Note the clever debate technique above that puts anyone who disagrees with me as "catholic". My logic students would be impressed that their prof did that!!) :eek:
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    First of all those who know me on the board know that I am and Amil Partial Preterist. Those of you who lean toward the preterist view fine but there is a warning that goes along with this eschatological point of view.

    A full preterist believes that all things have come to pass... Not only that... They also believe in a non physical resurrection of the body. I have been studying preterism for years and while I believe most of their viewpoints as far as the comparison of the Old and New Covenants as Amil embrace the same thing I can't believe that.

    I believe those things happened in the first century and especially 70 AD when Jerusalem was judged and history declares nothing less. Those who want to believe different are free to do so but I feel when we leave this out we miss the big picture of a much bigger picture.

    I also believe if we say that we are waiting for a kingdom instead of living in one we miss a greater blessing. Then again I guess that is for each and everyone of us to interpret as our understanding of scripture allows. There is one thing that I am sure of I shall see Jesus with my eyes in my wonderful glorified body... That is what today was a celebration of... The resurrected Christ who is our only hope... Now and in the future [​IMG] ... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
  14. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,120
    Likes Received:
    319
    My problem with preterism is that it doesn't seem adequate to deal with the wealth of Scriptures pointing to a global cataclysm when the Lord returns:

    Examples:

    Isaiah 13
    9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
    11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
    12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
    13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

    Matthew 24:
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Revelation 3
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    When and how were these Scriptures fulfilled in the preterist view?

    HankD
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christians were in Thssalonica thought they miss Lord's coming - 2 Thess 2:2. They were not rumouring about tribulation, they were rumouring about the timing of Lord's return.

    Paul told them, not to be deceived by listen from any rumours, teaching on the timing of Lord's retun. He told them, Lord shall not come till we first will see apostasy('falling way') first, and we will SEE Antichrist to be revealed first - 2 Thess. 2:3.

    Early Church knew that they must face tribulation first before Lord comes - Acts 14:22.

    Also, Early Church believed they will face Antichrist first before Lord comes.

    Of course, Early Church were expect Lord might come in their lifetime. Does that mean it seems like as immenency return of Christ?

    In other way, Early Church were expect Anticrist to be reveal anytime(immenincy). Same as Early Christians were expect Lord might come in their lifetime is like as immenincy.

    Through many centuries, even today, many Christians are expect for the Lord comes in their lifetme. Even I am expect Lord might come in my lifetime.

    No Christians knows when Christ comes, only God knows when. That is talking about no Christians know when the second advent will be occur.

    Jesus could have telling to his disciples on 1260 days, or 42 months in Matthew chapter 4 if he wants to. But, he didn't. Because he urged them to be faithful and be ready for his coming. Wall should be faithful and be ready all the times for the coming of Christ.

    Does that mean it support pretribulation doctrine? Not quiet.

    The context of the whole chapter 24 and 25 of Matthew focus on ONE future coming of the Christ -second coming.

    Jesus does not saying anything about two different comings anywhere in the ontext of Matthew chapter 24 and 25.

    I do not see there are two different comings anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24 and 25. I can see there is only ONE coming - second coming in the context of Matthew chapter 24 and 25.

    I do not agree with Preterism. Matt 24:30 ad Rev. 1:7 both telling us, EVERYONE on earth shall SEE the coming of Christ. Does Indians in North Aerica already saw Christ coming in the sky in the year 70 A.D.??

    Zech. 14:4 tells us, Christ's feet shall touch on Mt. Olivet to become into a great valley.

    I suggest you(preterists) why not you fly to Israel, and go to Jerusalem, to see Mt. Olive, is it already a great valley??

    Preterism interpretingscritures into spiritualize too much. That is misinterpreting.

    Matt 24:30; Rev. 17; Zech 14:4; and Acts 1:11 are not yet fulfill, these are still yet to come in the future at the second advent.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    OOOOPS!!! Excuse me, I mistype 'Rev. 17;' I should type 'Rev. 1:7;' correct.
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    The answer to this "problem" is a most convincing proof of dispensational premillennialism. It is true the Thessalonians thought they would be gone when the Lord returned. But why their confusion?? Because someone told them that the DOL had come--the tribulation had started--and they were still there. Any kind of post tribulational viewpoint is totally ruled out by this text. It is amazing that so many are confused by it. The only reason for their confusion was that they believed they would be gone when the Tribulation started. When someone told them it had already started, they were confused.

    The eschatology of the early church was premillennial, pretribulational. It was so clear it was rarely discussed. It is true they believed they would face tribulation, but they did not believe they would face the Tribulation. Post and a-millennialism did not start until around 300AD or later, by those for whom the "signs of the times" did not add up to what they were expecting. Thus, they changed their eschatology rather than their expectations.
     
  18. Tim

    Tim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2001
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hestiated to respond here. It seems like we've been round and round on this trying to prove our eschatology to each other for a long time with no visible progress.

    Let me voice our one mutual belief:
    Why is everybody else so stubborn!!??

    Count me in with the Apostles Paul, John and those other misguded "spiritualizers and allegorizers" Still amill and partial-pret.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  19. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, the problem is that you are so argumentative. I am not. It is everyone else.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    We would love to do the first, but we can't until you abandon the second :D ... Quit being so stubborn and join us on the glory train ... [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...