Eschatology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by RLBosley, Jul 17, 2014.

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  1. RLBosley

    RLBosley
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    Well, it's quite plain that there are many people on this forum who disagree with each other. There are a certain few topics that have lately commanded a lot of attention and causing a good deal of disagreement - Free Grace v Lordship, Non-violence v Just War, Evangelist6589's debt v common sense (I'm sorry brother, I couldn't help myself :smilewinkgrin:), and everyone's favorite... Calvinism v Arminianism.

    So I thought that we could have a diversion and discuss something that we all pretty much agree on.... the end of the world. :)

    oh, wait....

    :tongue3:

    My eschatology has made some drastic changes over the last 2 years, along with most of the rest of my theology. Short story long, I was a dispensationalist through and through. Raised in from birth, taught it without fail in every church I was a member of until about 2 years ago. I was such a thorough going dispy that I read the Left Behind series... THREE TIMES! I was that guy! Until 2 years ago, I didn't even know Covenant Theology was a thing. It was pre-trib or liberal as far as I was concerned.

    Well, I started doing research on a separate subject, which led me to find that there was a legitimate alternative to Dispensationalism, I thought it was wrong (still do in some ways) but that opened up a whole new world. I started really looking into end times views and quickly discovered the 3 main alternatives to pre-trib dispensationalism. I'm sure most, if not all, know them but I will enumerate them just in case:

    Historic Premillennialism - By dispy brothers, I know it pains you to acknowledge this, but Historic premill is called such because it really is the historic premill view. Dispensationalism is not. Just deal with it.

    Amillennialism - The abode of Calvinist's and demons, which were basically the same thing in the opinion of some of my past churches...

    Postmillennialism - I can't really think of anything funny to say so here's a picture of a turtle trying to eat a strawberry:

    [​IMG]

    Anyway, I eventually rejected Dispensationalism entirely, and came to adopt historic premill, largely due to the influence of George Ladd's writings though I have a few of my own thoughts that seperate me from him and other Historic pre-mill folks.

    Lately I have had some more changes in my eschatology which I thought I'd share for your consideration and debate. Primarily I've become more hopeful. By that I mean I have begun to really think the church will succeed in discipling the nations in some way. 3 of the 4 views typically have the church age ending in failure (Most wouldn't put it in those words, but that's the impression). I don't think that is really the case though. No, I am not a postmill now. I still tentatively hold to historic premill, but I am increasingly rejecting the pessimism that seems to go along with the typical premill schemes.

    Dispensationalism is hopelessly pessimistic. I know that they will never admit it but just look at what it teaches: The church fails to complete the great commission to the point where Jesus needs to come and rescue us before 7 years of hell on earth. During those 7 years, the Jews largely convert and start preaching the gospel and then they ultimately fail too and are sandwiched into Jerusalem under siege by the Antichrist when Jesus must step in and rescue them, but not before upwards of 75% are killed! In other words the church is an utter failure in every meaningful way.

    Historic Premill is better but not much: The church fails to disciple the nations, the church goes through the great tribulation, a lot of us die, and in the end Jesus comes back to establish his kingdom. Both versions of premill also have a rebellion at the end of Christ's reign. Again, failure.

    Amill is really all over the place from what I've seen, but traditionally it has been similar to Historic Premill, minus the 1,000 year reign at the end. Meaning the church still fails.

    Postmill is also all over the place too. Theonomy bothers me. The idea that the church should enforce the Mosaic Law on the nations? Just, no. The idea though that the church gradually spreads and encompasses the earth and thus actually succeeds in it's mission is very appealing.

    So I've been reading and reasoning and I have come to see that yes the church will succeed. Not to the level that postmillennialism affirms I don't think. But yes we really will succeed. Let me share a couple passages that I think really point to real victory for the church:

    Mat 16:18 NASB - "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.​

    Jesus says that he will build his church and it will not be defeated.

    Mat 28:18-20 NASB - And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."​

    Obviously we are all familiar with the great commission. However I have noticed that most of the time it is quoted starting with "Go" in verse 19. But that ignores the whole grounding for our going and making disciples - the authority of Jesus. Jesus Christ has been given all authority in the universe, what ever authority there is, he ultimately has it; it is on that basis that we go into the world and make disciples. Jesus also says he is with us in this mission, all the way to the very end. If the sovereign God of the universe who has all authority in heaven and earth has given us a mission, and has promised to be with us until the very end, does it not follow that he will empower us to actually accomplish it? That we really will succeed in discipling the nations?

    Eph 1:20-23 NASB - which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.​

    Similar thoughts as above. Christ has been given authority "far above all rule... not only in this age but also in the one to come." If that is so, and we are his body. How can we fail?

    Col 2:15 NASB - When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.​

    Most likely the rulers and authorities here are spiritual "authorities" that were in rebellion against God. They have already been defeated in the death of Christ. He has triumphed over them completely, shouldn't we then, as his people empowered by his spirit, also triumph?

    That is just a couple of passages, but I'll stop with those for now.

    This has been on my mind some the last few months. I haven't sat down to really examine every angle or to systematize my thoughts. I'm sure someone will see something I missed, or overlooked, some flaw somewhere. But I am really looking at the NT in a new light, I really think we will succeed in making disciples of the nations.

    Sorry this is so long, much longer than originally intended. Please share your thoughts.
     
    #1 RLBosley, Jul 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2014
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    I don't focus on it......too busy loving my God to care. See l have complete trust in him. I wont know when an where things happen, I wont speculate ....it is in His hands....why worry.

    You know.....this has become an obsession with you "religion " types. No wonder why nobody wants to be affiliated with you. Really quite pathetic.
     
  3. RLBosley

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    ?? I don't see where I said anything that would make you think I don't have complete trust in him. Or that I worry. It's in the scripture therefore it is worth learning and trying to understand.

    "religion types"? What does that even mean? And who is obsessed? I don't understand this seeming personal attack. I really hope I am misunderstanding something here.
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    Nope, you're not.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Bosley
    Good post.

    [QUOTELately I have had some more changes in my eschatology which I thought I'd share for your consideration and debate. Primarily I've become more hopeful. By that I mean I have begun to really think the church will succeed in discipling the nations in some way. 3 of the 4 views typically have the church age ending in failure (Most wouldn't put it in those words, but that's the impression). I don't think that is really the case though. No, I am not a postmill now. I still tentatively hold to historic premill, but I am increasingly rejecting the pessimism that seems to go along with the typical premill schemes. ][/QUOTE]


    I was Dispy premill for years...looked into amill...historic premill....I thought iwas historic premill or optimistic amill,lol

    Now I am not sure if I am a reluctant postmill...lol
     
  6. Aaron

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. Aaron

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    Amill. Right here.
     
  8. Reformed

    Reformed
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    Amil, but hold to it loosely.
     
  9. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    Unapologetically premillennial pretribulational dispensational.
     
  10. JamesL

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    I'm Premillennial for sure, Post Tribulation.

    I used to be peripherally PreTrib Dispensational. I say that because I was purely Dispensational, and had not studied Eschatological matters for myself, so I just went with the standard teaching from the agreed theological structure.

    Then about 5 years ago I was asked to help with bible study by debating against our associate pastor, who was PostTrib. We were to switch sides, and argue in favor of that position we disagreed with.

    So I studied both in-depth, to be able to adequately answer. Through that study, I found myself becoming convinced of the PostTrib position. Funny thing that associate pastor switched positions, too.

    Now I'm not sure if that makes me Historic PreMil, or progressive Dispensational, or neither.

    I prefer to call myself an inverted Dispensationalist. I no longer believe the church is a parenthesis. Instead, I see Israel as the parenthesis. God first dealt with all of mankind, then parenthetically dealt with Abraham and his descendants. At the end, He will again deal with all of mankind, as He is somewhat doing already.
     
  11. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    I think it just makes you confused. :laugh: J/K
    I object to any concept of the church being "parenthetical" to anything, or for Israel to be described thusly as well. There is no "parenthesis" anywhere. God chose Israel to bring His message into the world. The rest of the world not of ancient Israel has the potential to become "the church" through faith in Christ. Israel "missed her visitation" in Christ, but has not been condemned, merely "set aside" which is not a parenthetical existence. Many among the Jewish peoples now follow Christ, and all of Israel as the chosen have one more opportunity to believe in Him, as do those not of the church, when the Tribulation begins and the prophecies of the Bible come to life before the unbelieving world.
     
    #11 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jul 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2014
  12. Yeshua1

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    The main problems that I as a Dispy have with that viewpoint is that I do see God offer still a future hope to national Israel at end times, and do see the Bible predicting a rise of Antichrist and tribulation and grwoing steadfastly worse, and most of all, cannot reconcile the Messianic passages descring what earth will be like when jesus reigns with what has happened unto now in history!
     
  13. JamesL

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    It doesn't take much to prove that sometimes.


    I agree 100%...

    I probably should have been more clear. Not parenthetical in the sense that only Jews could come to saving faith then, or that only Gentiles can now.

    Plenty of biblical examples of Gentile believers during the time of the Law, and Jewish believers since.

    I mean parenthetical dealings in that God set aside Israel for a specific purpose which did not include Gentiles, the glory and promises - Romans 9:4
     
  14. asterisktom

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    Unapologetically Preterist, having been premillennial pretribulational dispensational for many years, then Prewrath, then Amill.
     
  15. kyredneck

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    Unapologetically Preterist as concerns the gospels, Preterhistoridealifuturist as concerns Revelation.
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Why??????:type:
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

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    God has spoken:laugh:
     
  18. RLBosley

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    Thank you. Glad to see I am not the only one.

    :D

    Now the question is: Did I just post that picture for giggles or as an image reflecting the postmill idea that the church will slowly consume the world??? :smilewinkgrin:


    Sounds a lot like myself. The position you seem to be promoting sounds close to New Covenant Theology's view of the Mosaic Covenant (not the dealing with Abraham) being parenthetical, that it was a temporary covenant put into place after the promises were made to Abraham and was in effect until Christ came.


    I think that my original purpose for this thread was missed. As useful as it is to see what everyone's views are, I was mostly curious to see if anyone else, like me, has a hopeful view of eschatology, though not postmillennial.


    Also, O/T but does anyone know why my thread on violence was closed? I know it had reached 10 pages and that is technically the cut off, but there were threads on LS that reached 30 pages before being closed!
     
  19. convicted1

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    Though I am amill, I don't debate this topic that much. Why? Wherever Jesus is, is where I want to be. I want to be where He is. If it's here on a refurbished earth or in heaven, I'll just be happy to be eternally with Him. I want Him to shine all over me, I want to bow before Him, to thank Him for His love. I want to see God sitting on His throne...to hear the singing, to rejoice forevermore....
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    isa.11
    9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

    10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

    12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth


    psa22;

    27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

    28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

    30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

    31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    psa72;
    8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

    9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

    10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

    11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

    Paul quotes from Isa 11...in reference to the gentiles coming in.....
     
    #20 Iconoclast, Jul 20, 2014
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