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Establishment or separation of Church and State?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Matt Black, Aug 29, 2003.

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  1. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    Sadly, many Baptist churches have dropped programs such as Training Union (BTU) and Baptist Young Peoples Union (BYPU). As a result we have become slackened in our knowledge of doctrine. Ask one of the older folks in your congregation. They will likely tell you the same.

    Nevertheless, there are New Testament imperatives that dictate a seperation of the secular and the ethereal. John 18:33-40 or John 8:23 is a good place to begin an exploration of this.

    My hope is that you have never heard anyone say that it is.

    [ August 30, 2003, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
     
    #21 Clint Kritzer, Aug 29, 2003
  2. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Ken said:

    There are a number of high-profile people who call themselves Baptists whom I think would be better off somewhere else. I'm sure they would think the same of me were they to discover my existence.

    Baptist history is replete with examples of Baptists demanding that the sacred not be corrupted by the secular - and vice versa.

    On individual instances - such as the current Alabama case (which has provoked a re-enactment of the Civil War on various threads here at the Board) - we may disagree how the principle is to be applied, but the principle itself is still vital to being a Baptist.
     
    #22 rsr, Aug 29, 2003
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I think that is my point. I feel certain that the vast majority of the members of the Baptist church I attend would side, as I do, with Judge Roy Moore.
     
    #23 KenH, Aug 29, 2003
  4. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Clint said:

    Well, that got me to thinking about the importance of inculcating in our folks just why in the world we are Baptists, anyway.

    At the time I was baptized, I couldn't have told anyone why I was becoming a Baptist. Shoot, I'd only been in non-Baptist churches a few times (Pentecostal and Holiness). But as the years passed, I began to understand the essential doctrines from sermons and Baptist writings. Thus I realize the importance of teaching the basics: what they are, and why they are a correct interpretation of the Scripture.

    But at some point, each of us must compare what we have been taught with what we believe is true, what we believe to be the closest approximation to the whole teachings of the Bible. It is at that point, I think, that one properly becomes a Baptist.

    After that point, there is a wonderful tension between believing something "because I'm a Baptist" and "I'm a Baptist because I believe that."

    On one hand, the distinctives inform my outlook on life and provide a "shorthand of theology" to size up a situation. On the dreaded other hand, my responsibility within the priesthood of the believer can make me confront situations in which I must re-examine whether that "shorthand" - or at least my understanding of it - is correct.
     
    #24 rsr, Aug 29, 2003
  5. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    You may be right, Ken, but from the rhetoric I've heard, I fear many of the judge's supporters are on his side because they don't really believe in the principle of separation, not because of the facts of the case support the principle.
     
    #25 rsr, Aug 29, 2003
  6. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    Go ahead Johnv. I will follow Christ not the false doctrine of separation of church and state. </font>[/QUOTE]The absolute biblical separation of church and state is not only a basic NT doctrine, but essential to being Baptist.
     
    #26 Taufgesinnter, Aug 30, 2003
  7. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Even though we are speaking and posting on this Baptist Distinctive most of you all are in a government sponsored (tax exempt - benefit/subsidized/dole system) church.
    You should read what Isaac Backus wrote and said concerning the subject. He stood firmly agin' it.
    I hope some of you "see the light" before it is too late. This is really something to see ya'll debate this but your walk talks more than your talk talks.

    Thanks --------Bart
     
    #27 Bartimaeus, Aug 30, 2003
  8. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    In light of Matthew 22:15-22, you may have a point, Bartimaeus. In that the modern church owns property and all the responsibilities that go along with it as well as the collection and disbursement of stewardship funds, many churches are unnecessarily tempted by the 501(c)3.

    The church, under the 1st Ammendment in this nation, has always been non-taxable. Many feel that it is necessary to attain a tax exempt status. It is my understanding that the original intent of the push for incorporation was so that pastors could use the state to collect salary.

    Since you brought it up, here's a link on the Backus arguments:

    http://biblicalexaminer.org/corp-cov.htm

    Though the links for Leland's views on religious liberty are quite numerous, I am unable to locate anything specifically on church incorporation. Could you provide something?

    I just joined the church I attend now a few months ago and I am not even sure if we are incorporated. I will find out.
     
    #28 Clint Kritzer, Aug 30, 2003
  9. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    "The conclusion of the whole matter, therefore, is, that the government of Christ is radically different from all the governments on earth, forming, of itself, a divine Christocracy. By a Christocracy, I mean nothing more than a government of which Christ is law-giver, king, and judge, and yet so arranged, that each congregational church is a complete republic of itself, not to be controlled by civil government or hierarchy. Let this government be called by what name soever, it is not of the world, and therefore, the rulers of this world have nothing to do with it, in their official capacity. It is distinct from the government of state, and consequently, should never be mixed with it. It is complete of itself, and disdains the assistance of human laws."
    John Leland
    This quote is taken from the book called, Approved by God, A Case For Modern Disestablishment, Wright/Townsend. It is offered by the Ecclesiastical Law Center, Mesick, Mi.
    Ph. (231) 885-2367

    This is all I could come up with now, I'll do some searching and post later.
    Thanks --------Bart
     
    #29 Bartimaeus, Aug 30, 2003
  10. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    #30 Clint Kritzer, Aug 30, 2003
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