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ESV and free grace position

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by nodak, Aug 4, 2008.

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  1. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    I hear lots of folks refer to the ESV as being for Calvinists and popular among Lordship salvation folks.

    I am neither. However, as a kid KJV and RSV were used in the churches I attended. I grew accustomed to both.

    I find the ESV accurate and easily read and comprehended and still sounding "familiar" to me.

    Any reason a free grace advocate would shun this translation?
     
    #1 nodak, Aug 4, 2008
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Why are there only 2 camps: "Calvinist" and "Free Grace?" I would not call myself either one. I refuse to consider the Lordship issue as too much divisiveness is coming from that and we have enough as it is.

    And "Free Grace" is a redundant and ridiculous term. Grace is by definition free.

    Maybe the ESV is popular among Reformed people because there is a Reformed Study ESV Bible? I don't see any reason why the ESV translation in and of itself would be a problem for a non-Calvinist. Of course, I use the term "Calvinist" loosely, since there are many degrees of it, depending on whom you are speaking to.
     
    #2 Marcia, Aug 4, 2008
  3. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    Marcia--of course there are more than two camps, as you put it.

    Those just happen to be the two camps I run into most often using the ESV.

    I want to know if that is just coincidence, or if there is doctrinal bias in that direction in the translation team and their results.

    Did you know one of the biggest controversies regarding the old version of the Living Bible was it's translation of Acts 13:48? Most versions would read "all of those appointed" or "all of those ordained to" eternal life believed. The Living Bible read "as many as wanted eternal life." Quite a difference in meaning, and very doctrinally biased.

    Many Calvinists, 5 point or modified, found it distinctly Arminian.

    We are blessed to have many translations to use. Still, it is wise to know the background of the translators.

    As to all grace being free--agreed, and it is all from a sovereign God.

    Off topic, but knowing where you stand theologically as to system and also on the Lordship debate cut to the core of what the gospel is. That is why it is so hotly debated. Divisive? Absolutely. Has been since the time of Paul. But since it is key to understanding salvation it is worth studying both sides and comparing them to scripture.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply.

    And again, scholars out there: any bias you have found in the ESV?
     
    #3 nodak, Aug 5, 2008
  4. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    No more bias than the Anglician bias found in the KJV.:laugh:
     
    #4 Mexdeaf, Aug 5, 2008
  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Acts 16:33-34 [ESV, emphasis added]
    And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.
     
    #5 Jerome, Aug 5, 2008
  6. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Eph. 4:11

    KJV "pastors"
    ASV "pastors
    RSV "pastors"
    NIV "pastors"
    NKJV "pastors"
    NRSV "pastors"
    CEV "pastors"
    NLT "pastors"
    TNIV "pastors"
    CSB "pastors"

    ESV "shepherds"
     
    #6 Jerome, Aug 5, 2008
  7. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    The reason it sounds so familiar to you is that it is a revision of the Revised Standard Version by evangelicals.
     
    #7 Jerome, Aug 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2008
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    The ESV is a lightly retouched 1971 RSV. The ESV is billed as "essentially literal"(which is not true),but it is essentially RSV.
     
    #8 Rippon, Aug 5, 2008
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Nodak, I don't really care too much for the ESV, though guys I enjoy preaching and teaching use it.

    Jerome, the ESV's rendering of Acts 16:34 does justice to a perfect participle in Greek.

    And I commend the ESV's correct rendering the Greek in Eph 4:11.

    Nodak, the TNIV is great.
     
    #9 TCGreek, Aug 5, 2008
  10. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    But who was it that had believed?
     
    #10 Jerome, Aug 5, 2008
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    In the Greek the perfect participle is nominative masculine singular, no doubt referring to the jailer.
     
    #11 TCGreek, Aug 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2008
  12. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    I see. The others had not believed, but were rejoicing: the jailer had brought his entire household into the covenant with his belief.
     
    #12 Jerome, Aug 5, 2008
  13. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Genesis 17:2

    KJV
    And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

    ASV
    And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

    RSV
    And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.

    NASB
    I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly.

    NIV
    I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.

    NKJV
    And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.

    NLT
    I will make a covenant with you, by which I will guarantee to make you into a mighty nation.

    NRSV
    And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous.


    ESV
    that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly.
     
    #13 Jerome, Aug 5, 2008
  14. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Luke doesn't say that. Notice what Luke says:

    The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household. (TNIV, emphasis added)

    The focus is clearly on the jailer. But in verse 33, not just him, but others in his household were baptized.
     
    #14 TCGreek, Aug 5, 2008
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    That was a boo-boo on my part. I meant to say, "Why are there always two camps?" I was thinking Calvinist/Non-calvinist, Lordshop/non-LS, Reformed/"free grace," etc.

    I don't fall into any of these "camps." I never liked camping anyway. :laugh:
     
    #15 Marcia, Aug 5, 2008
  16. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    tc greek--I LOVE the tniv. Unfortunately, I need really big print for study. The largest I have found is the tniv thinline xl--and that is NOT big print. Maybe a 9 font. Keep me posted if you find it in REALLY large print. I would use it all the time.
     
    #16 nodak, Aug 6, 2008
  17. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Nodak, I'm glad you love the TNIV. Don't worry Zondervan has a large print in the workds. :thumbs:
     
    #17 TCGreek, Aug 6, 2008
  18. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    I know, just playing devil's advocate.:saint:
    The ESV's focuses exclusively on the jailer's belief in verse 34: his household merely rejoiced with him. Most other versions, as the TNIV, have those of his household believing as well.

    ESV And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

    TNIV he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.
     
    #18 Jerome, Aug 6, 2008
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