ESV = Essentially RSV

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Yes,another thread on the ESV and its antiquated language in juxtaposition with its cousin -- the NRSV. In contrast to the latter,the 2001 ESV team spent comparatively little time in actually updating the 1971 RSV. The NRSV Committee actually went through the RSV with a fine tooth comb.It is a revamped edition. But the ESV effort was a rush job. I think it exalted the KJV in the name of 'fine stately literature.' However,standard English of the 21st century took a backseat in this version.

    In the Preface to the ESV it says that "archaic language has been brought to current usage" and that it employs "current literary English." Well, no.Claims such as that are false. And they make a lot of claims to that effect in their promotional materials also.

    I am not saying that the NRSV should be the standard, but it's a lot better in this respect than the ESV.I wish the former had taken even more steps in the direction of the vernacular;but it's way ahead of the ESV in this regard.

    Just a short line will be cited from both versions.N=NRSV and E=ESV.

    Psalm 22:11
    N : Do not be far from me
    E : Be not far from me

    Psalm 27:9
    N : Do not hide your face from me
    E : Hide not your face from me

    Psalm 28:1
    N : do not refuse to hear me
    E : be not deaf to me

    Psalm 37:1 ( also verses 7 and 8)
    N : Do not fret
    E : Fret not

    Ecc. 5:11
    N : When goods increase,those who eat them increase
    E : When goods increase,they increase who eat them

    2 Kings 7:3
    N : there were four men who were lepers
    E : there were four leprous men

    Phil. 2:7
    N : but emptied himself
    E : but made himself nothing

    Phil. 2:27
    N : so that I would not have one sorrow after another
    E : lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow

    1 Thess.2:8
    N : So deeply do we care for you
    E : So,being affectionately desirous of you

    1 Thess.2:17
    N : we longed with great eagerness
    E : we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire

    1 Thess. 4:7
    N : For God did not call us to impurity
    E : For God has not called us for impurity

    2 Tim. 1:18
    N : And you know very well
    E : and you well know

    2 Tim. 4:8
    N : From now on
    E : Henceforth

    Heb. 4:1
    N : let us take care that none of you
    E : let us fear lest any of you

    Heb. 5:2
    N : subject to weakness
    E : beset with weakness

    Heb. 9:6
    N : having been made
    E : having thus been made

    Heb. 11:27
    N : as though he saw him who is invisible
    E : as seeing him who is invisible

    Heb. 12:9
    N : Should we not be even more willing to be subject
    E : Shall we not much more be subject

    Heb.13:2
    N : some have entertained angels without knowing it
    E : some have entertained angels unawares

    James 1:2
    N : Consider it nothing but joy
    E : Count it all joy

    James 5:8
    N : Strengthen your hearts
    E : Establish your hearts

    1 Peter 3:20
    N : when God waited patiently
    E : God's patience waited

    1 Peter 4:18
    N : If it is hard for the righteous to be saved
    E : If the righteous is scarcely saved

    2 Peter 1:17
    N : that voice was conveyed to him
    E : that voice was borne to him

    2 John 7
    N : any such person
    E : such a one

    Jude 8
    N : Yet in the same way
    E : Yet in like manner
     
  2. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, Rippon- you seem to have a bee in your bonnet concerning the ESV being a 'poor man's RSV'.

    You're selling, but I am still not buying. Take a look at this site-

    http://www.bible-researcher.com/esv.html
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Okay. Perhaps you didn't read my OP carefully.Maybe you didn't read Michael Marlowe's long article closely enough either.

    The point of my post was to demonstrate that the ESV does not use contemporary English. It's marketing campaign is not being truthful in that respect (and in other ways too,which is not related to my OP).

    In that very long article by Mr. Marlowe only two short lines touch on the theme of my OP. "It also updates the language somewhat." That's a truthful statement. The ESV marginally updated the language of the RSV.It omitted the "thees","thys",etc.

    It's "more idiomatic than the NASB". Well, perhaps it's a smidgin more idiomatic than the NASB of pre-1995 vintage. But that's not saying much.

    The overwhelming bulk of his essay dealt with issues completely unrelated to my OP.

    Would you like to comment on my OP MD?
     
  4. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    The thread title is a bit misleading, even though probably this is unintentional.

    The ESV is more accurately essentially, an updated "update" of the RSV update(s) of the 1952 RSV, that appeared in the 1970s. The Revised Version [RV- aka English Revised Version or ERV (1881)] and its "double first cousin, the ASV (1901), are in the family lineage, true, but it is still a bit of an inaccuracy to call the ESV (actually, a 'great-grandchild' of the RV) "essentially Revised Version," IMO.

    Ed
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    You're right Ed. I can edit a post;but I can't edit a title. It should have been something like :ESV = Essentially RSV. That would have been short,sweet and more accurate.
     
  6. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Lines From Isaiah In ESV,NRSV And NLTse

    As the title indictes,I'll give some wordings of lines from the ESV=E;NRSV=N;and occasionally the NLTse=S.What follows are just 10 examples.BTW,the NASBU does not have any of these renderings.It's English is still on the wooden-side;but at least it uses standard English grammar.

    I don't get the fascination in using a "modern version" which sounds so archaic. There is no reason for it;unless one thinks that having the KJV-feel qualifies as being "beautiful literature".It reads awkwardly most of the time. The revisors did not do nearly as much work in revamping the ESV as the NRSV team did in their update of the 1971 RSV.

    1:2
    E : give ear
    N : Hear
    S : Listen

    3:12
    E : they have swallowed up the course of your paths
    N : [your leaders]confuse the course of your paths
    S : they send you down the wrong road

    18:6
    E : They shall all of them be left
    N : They shall all be left

    29:22
    E : Jacob shall no more be ashamed
    N : No longer shall Jacob be ashamed

    41:24
    E : an abomination is he who chooses you
    N : whoever chooses you is an abomination
    S : Those who choose you pollute themselves

    42:22
    E : they are all of them trapped in holes
    N : all of them are trapped in holes

    44:8
    E : There is no Rock;I know not any.
    N : There is no other rock;I know not one.
    S : No! There is no other Rock -- not one!

    45:24
    E : to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
    N : all who were incensed against him shall come to him and be ashamed.
    S : And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.

    49:4
    E : yet surely my right is with the Lord.
    N : yet surely my cause is with the Lord,and my reward with my God.
    S : Yet I leave it in the Lord's hand;

    64:9
    E : remember not inquity forever.
    N : do not remember iniquity forever.
    S : Please don't remember our sins forever.
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Lines From 1 Sam.:ESV/NRSV/NLTse

    ESV=E;NRSV=N;NLTse=S [I will skip two references of the latter translation]

    1:14
    E : Put away your wine from you.[Too archaic.]
    N : Put away your wine
    S : Throw away your wine!

    2:32
    E : there shall not be an old man in your house forever [An ancient way of speaking.And it is soo unnecessary.]
    N : no one in your family will live to old age [This is much better.]
    S : no members of your family will ever live out their days

    4:16
    E : I am he who has come from the battle [ Who talks like this these days?]
    N : I have just come from the battle
    S : I have just come from the battlefield

    9:17
    E : He it is who shall restrain my people
    N : He it is who shall rule over my people [ "He it is"= awkward English."Restrain my people"?
    S : He will rule my people. [ Now that's what I'm talking about!That is straightforward English.]

    9:20
    E : And for whom is all that is desirable in Israel? [What?!]
    N : And on whom is all Israel's desire fixed [ A bit better.]
    S : the focus of all Israel's hopes [I like it!]

    14:21
    E : even they also turned to be with the Israelites [ Stop being so old-fashioned in your language ESV.]
    N : turned and joined the Israelites

    14:45
    E : who has worked this great salvation
    N : who has accomplished this great victory

    17:29
    E : Was it not but a word? [Can't you speak normally?]
    N : It was only a question
    S : I was only asking a question!

    22:15
    E : Let not the king impute anything to his servant [ Come on! "Let not"?]
    N : Do not let the king impute anything to his servant
    S : May the king not accuse me and my family in this matter
     
  8. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Assuming all you say is true. What do you think should be done about it?
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    # 1 :The promotional arm of the ESV needs to be honest.

    The ESV has the perfect right to retain its antiquated phraselogy.But sooner or later users will come to their senses and conclude:"Hey! This version is whacked!" ( a highly technical term)Then, after waking up, they can buy a TNIV,HCSB,ISV or NET Bible ( maybe even an NLTse if they are adventurous).

    If the promotion eventually becomes consistent with the actual product I would be happy.But the ESV has a long way to go on several fronts.It's bogus that "Archaic language has been brought to current usage" and the claim that it employs "current literary English". The team needs to actually do a real revision.

    My examples are just the tip of the iceburg.It's embarrassing to point out the many cases in this "modern version" of poor grammar and old-fashioned biblish. The ESV is enshrining a tradition in the name of "literary excellence".

    If the ESV doesn't take action then it will be left in the dust.It will be remembered as the Studebakker of its era.
     
  10. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Have you priced Studebakers recently? I wish I had one!
     
  11. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    Your wish...well you know the rest :)
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Wow Roger,that's magical.With just some clicks of your mouse you can do some mighty fine tricks.
     
  13. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    I started studying Isaiah and read the first chapter recently.

    You brought up Isaiah 1:2

    ESV : Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth
    NAS : Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth
    NLT : Listen, O heavens! Pay attention, earth!

    In Hebrew, this verse is alliterative (the words start with the same letter).

    Shamau Shamim, ha- 'zini 'eretz

    While I enjoy the clear and concise language of the NLT here, I'm awed by the language skills of the AV translators (and in turn, the ESV)

    You can see that the NAS attempted to eliminate the extra word added in the AV "give", and translate the word, "hear"; very close to an alliteration.
    In fact the word "ha" is there so it fits. WoW.

    So which one's better???

    Rob
     
    #13 Deacon, Aug 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2008
  14. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good job by an Administrator and Moderator!

    Thanks for editing the title of the thread for accuracy.

    Ed
     
  15. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, you can edit a title!

    As a former professional American baseball star and the all time career leader for number of hits, might have asked, "Wanna' bet?" :smilewinkgrin:

    In fact, I just edited the title in both this post, and also in my previous post. One has to 'click' on "Go Advanced" and this editing of the title will be permitted, within an alloted BB time limit to edit.

    Sorry, I did not respond to this earlier. Incidentally, you could have reworded the title in each post you made, even after the time limit had expired on the OP, provided that time limit had not expired on the subsequent post or posts, as well, if I understand this correctly. I apologize for not actually bringing this up, to you (or phrasing the 'title' of my own response, in this manner) earlier.

    C4K??

    Have I accurately presented this?

    "Can you hear me now??"


    Incidentally, this 'question', also posed in the ubiquitous cell phone commercials, is a 'ripoff' of the long speech given by John Galt in Ayn Rand's book, Atlas Shrugged, where John Galt asks the question (of several different individuals), "Do you hear me now, ____ _____?"

    Ed
     
    #15 EdSutton, Aug 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2008
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    I think only admin can change the title of the whole thread, but I was wrong once before.
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Luke In ESV,NASBU,TNIV

    Again, I am here demonstrating the awkward English of the ESV. It's promoted as a modern version;however it's language is dated and filled with Biblish.It's not necessary for a 21st century version to 'speak' that way.It's language is understandable;but still unnatural.
    Many have complained that the NASBU uses stilted and wooden English.That's true on occasion.But it fares much better in that respect than does the ESV.
    The TNIV uses ocassional archaic expressions.It's not as contemporary as some seem to believe.But it's English is more natural than that of the ESV.
    Once in awhile I'll supply the 1534 Tyndale wording in which spelling and punctuation have been modernized,but in which archaic verb forms have been retained.

    I'll just give a line or so;not a whole verse usually.

    ESV=E;NASBU=N;TNIV=T;Tnydale=W (which stands for William)

    1:11
    E : And there appeared to him an angel
    N : And an angel of the Lord appeared to him
    T : Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him

    1:17
    E :and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah
    N :It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah
    T :And he will go on before the Lord,in the spirit and power of Elijah

    4:6
    E : for it has been delivered to me
    N : for it has been handed over to me
    T : it has been given to me

    4:36
    E : What is this word?
    N : What is this message?
    T : What words these are!
    W : What manner a thing is this?

    5:5
    E : we toiled all night
    N : we worked hard all night
    T : we've worked hard all night

    5:15
    E : But now even more the report about him went abroad
    N : But the news about Him was spreading even farthur
    T : Yet the news about him spread all the more

    5:26
    E : And amazement seized them all
    N : They were all struck with astonishment
    T : Everyone was amazed
    W : and they were all amazed

    7:21
    E : and on many who were blind he bestowed sight
    N : and He gave sight to many who were blind
    T : and gave sight to many who were blind
    W : and unto many that were blind he gave sight

    8:23
    E : they were filling with water
    N : and they began to be swamped
    T : so that the boat was being swamped

    8:37
    E : seized with great fear
    N : gripped with great fear
    T : overcome with fear
    W : taken with great fear

    8:46
    E : I perceive that power has gone out from me
    N : for I was aware that power had gone out of Me
    T : I know that power has gone out from me

    9:51
    E : he set his face
    N : He was determined
    T : Jesus resolutely

    I'm taking a break.
     
  18. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Shall we continue?Yes,please do.

    In the last two hours I had typed out the remaining verses;all to have them vanish -- twice! So I will post just a few at a time in this go-round.

    10:40
    E : But Martha was distracted with much serving
    N : But Martha was distracted with all her preparations
    T : But Martha was distracted by all the preparations

    11:7
    E : and he will answer from within
    N : and from inside he answers
    T : the one inside answers

    11:41
    E : But give as alms those things that are within,and behold,everything is clean for you.
    N : But give that which is within as charity,and then all things are clean for you.
    T : But now as for what is inside you --be generous to the poor,and everything will be clean for you.

    15:22
    E : Bring quickly the best robe
    N : Quickly bring out the best robe
    T : Quick! Bring the best robe.

    15:24 ( see verse 32 also)
    E : For this my son was dead
    N : for this son of mine was dead
    T : For this son of mine was dead
     
  19. Nomad

    Nomad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2003
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's well known that the ESV is about 95% identical with the RSV. That fact was never hidden. The starting assumption was the RSV was a good translation marred by a few liberal or misleading renderings. The ESV intended to rectify those deficiencies. I like the ESV; it has a noble style missing from many modern translations. But, it's not for everybody, and I admit to using a few of the more trendy versions as well.
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Hi Nomad.I don't believe I've had the pleasure of "meeting you" yet.

    If you like the ESV -- more power to you.As long as you're reading,studying,meditating and applying the Word,that's wonderful.

    Hmm,the "noble style" of the ESV. I guess you mean stately and dignified?Do you think William Tyndale and Martin Luther wanted their translations in a "noble style"?I believe they wanted their translations in the common tongue of the people.The style of the ESV does not qualify in that respect.It's not written in the vernacular of native English speakers.

    What,in your estimation,is a "trendy version"?Do you mean faddish,or just popular?What versions in particular do you mean?
     

Share This Page

Loading...