Esv/nrsv

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Oct 2, 2006.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    I have said before that though the ESV was released to the public about a dozen years after the NRSV -- the ESV has more dated language . The NRSV has some old-fashioned lingo too -- just not as much as the ESV . The ESV version was a rush-job -- a light dusting of the RSV . I am expecting an improved product in the future . They need to take some time in order to really claim that it is the "English Standard " . If they retain the time-warped English usage of mainly 150 or so years ago -- the ESV will go the way of the Edsel .

    Up first in the book of Proverbs are some phrases from the ESV at the top and the NRSV at the bottom .

    3:25 __ the ruin of the wicked
    the storm that strikes the wicked

    5:10 __ lest strangers take their fill of your strength
    and strangers will take their fill of your wealth

    6:13 __ signals with the feet
    shuffling the feet

    6:26 __ a married woman hunts down a precious life
    the wife of another stalks a man's very life

    10:8 __ A rich man's wealth is his strong city
    The wealth of the rich is their fortress

    11:8 __ The righteous is
    the righteous are

    11:14 __ a people falls
    a nation falls

    11:15 __ he who hates striking hands in pledge is secure
    there is safety in refusing to do so

    12:9 __ than to play the great man and lack bread
    than to be self-important and lack food
    Heb. " who feigns importance ."

    12:21 __ No ill befalls the righteous
    No harm happens to the righteous

    14:20 __ The poor is disliked
    The poor are disliked

    16:20 __ An oracle is on the lips of a king
    inspired decisions are on the lips of a king
    in other words -- divine decisions

    19:15 __ Slothfulness casts into a deep sleep
    Laziness brings on deep sleep

    22:7 __ The rich rule rules over the poor
    The rich rule over the poor

    22:9 _- Whoever has a bountiful eye
    Those who are generous

    22:24 __ nor go with a wrathful man
    and do not associate with hotheads

    23:7 __ heart is not with you
    do not mean it

    31:8 __ Open your mouth for the mute
    Speak out for those who cannot speak
     
  2. Deacon

    Deacon
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    Part of the problem with these shot-gun posts is that they cover such a broad area.

    Just examining your first example [Pro. 3:25]: the ESV follows the Hebrew text in a literal manner, word for word: the NRSV adds to the phraseology the work "strikes".

    Personally I like the ESV's solution better, and many other versions follow through with a similar translation style as the ESV (KJV, NKJV, NAS, ESV, HCS, YLT).

    As I slowly examine the ESV in my personal studies I am finding it trustworthy and quite faithful to the original text,
    AND at the same time it provides interesting literal translations that are unique to other versions.

    Rush job? Not at all.

    Rob
     
  3. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
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    I looked closely at the first few comparisons... maybe I'll do more later.
    ESV still at the top and the NRSV at the bottom.

    3:25 __ the ruin of the wicked
    the storm that strikes the wicked

    Hebrew 'show' means devastation, ruin, waste (Strong's 7722)
    There is no word or phrase that means "storm" or "strikes" in the original language.
    Many versions have destruction (NLT, Darby) or desolation (KJV, Young, ASV).
    Although "the storm that strikes" does bring devastation to my mind now (because of Katrina and the recent tsunami),
    it may not to others. The ESV is straightforward and does not leave much room for interpretation here.
    _______________
    5:10 __ lest strangers take their fill of your strength
    and strangers will take their fill of your wealth

    Hebrew 'koach' means strength, power, might (Strong's 3581).
    ESV: has the support of the NASB (I will not include supports from the RSV).
    NRSV: has the support of the KJV, NKJV and NIV.
    I really prefer the more literalness ESV/NASB here. A power base can come from other sources than riches.
    _______________
    6:13 __ signals with the feet
    shuffling the feet

    Hebrew 'malal' means to speak, utter, say (Strong's 4448).
    ESV: has support from the NIV, NASB and NLT; KJV has speaketh.
    NRSV: has support from the NKJV.
    The ESV/others convey communication by the feet, which is lost by the NRSV/NKJV.
    _______________
    6:26 __ a married woman / hunts down a precious life
    the wife of another / stalks a man's very life

    Hebrew 'ishshah' means to woman, wife, female (Strong's 802).
    Many have adultress (KJV, NKJV, NASB, Young).
    ESV: none exactly like this
    NRSV: has the support of Darby.
    While the NRSV/Darby is better than the ESV here, I think adultress is even better. In context the ESV might be understood:
    the verse is comparing a prostitute's price to this type of woman's (what type of woman would she be?).

    Hebrew 'tsuwd' means to hunt eagerly or keenly (Strong's 6679).
    ESV: has support of the KJV, NASB, Young, Darby.
    NRSV: none exactly like this
    Some have prey (NKJV, NLT).
    I favor the ESV/others over NRSV, but I think prey may be better yet. "Hunt" and "stalk" are nearly synonymous in the sense of seeking. "Stalk" seems specifically the searching prior to the killing for food; "hunt" in this sense seems to include the violent end (although hunting can be unsuccessful).

    Hebrew 'yaqar' means valuable, prized, weighty, precious (Strong's 3368).
    ESV: has support from most versions consulted.
    The NRSV leaves this important adjective out completely.
    _______________
    10:15, not 8 __ A rich man's wealth is his strong city
    The wealth of the rich is their fortress

    Hebrew 'qiryah simply means city, town (Strong's 7151).
    ESV: has the support of the KJV, NKJV, Young, Darby; the NIV has fortified city.
    NRSV: has the support of the NASB and the NLT.
    I do like the ESV/others a little better on the a fortress is not necessarily a city.

    In summary, I find the ESV more complete and more accurate in five of the seven instances above. The two instances where I felt the NRSV was better, they were both weaker than other translations.

    In this small sampling, the ESV was about twice as likely to be similar to other translations. The ESV is at times in agreement with the NIV, NASB (its near cousin), NLT, Young, Darby and the KJV. Therefore, to criticize the ESV for its language is to also criticize these other versions.

    No version is perfect; if the intention was to show that the ESV is worse than some others, these verses were not the proof to me.
     
  4. TC

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    Even if the ESV or whatever Bible version does have dated language, does that make them bad? I get the idea that the author of all these threads like this one thinks so. Nevertheless, it does not. I have most major bible translations in English - old and new. I learn a great deal when reading them. Even some newly published history books I have are filled with dated, archaic language. Yet, I do not see people railing against them (history or other books) like they do against Bible versions. Makes me kind of wonder.
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon
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    FM , very good research ! I do not have the time to comment on the specifics . Surely you must be aware of my numerous threads illustrating the ancient English of the ESV .

    You said that at times the ESV is in agreement with a number of other translations such as the NIV , NLT etc. You must know that there is a considerable difference between these versions and the ESV overall . If they agree with some wording here and there fine , but my observations on the ESV would not apply to the NIV and NLT in particular .

    TC , archaic language is not ideal for a Bible translation in any language . Why do you see a need for ye olde tyme speech ? Do you think Luther and Tyndale were wrong to put their translations in the way the common person spoke ? Why must a "new version" be in old-speak ? At times the ESV does not use old-fashioned speech . But there are too many times where it does just that . It has not updated the RSV enough . The NRSV made better strides in that regard . Do some research , the ESV was indeed a rush job .
     
  6. TC

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    I happen to like the ESV. It is a literal translation of the texts that underlie it. Sometimes that makes for akward English, but I like that better than someone interpreting it for me. I do not demand that new Bible translations be in old speak as you call it, but it just happens at times - just as it does in new history books, science books, and encyclopedias. These many long posts seem like they are meant to change our minds and convince us to like whatever you like the best. I read a many different styles of writing - old and new - and see no need to stop now just because you want everything to be how you like it.
     
  7. franklinmonroe

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    I do suspect that the ESV wording is different than other versions (but I have not read it much). In the Proverb verses you posted the ESV agreed frequently. I would appreciate a few specific and obvious examples submitted of the ESV's inconsistancy of language style. Thanks
     
  8. Rippon

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    More ESV and NRSV

    The following will be scattered references throughout the Bible . They will be in no particular order as will be readily apparent . The ESV rendering of phrases will be at the top , and the NRSV wording at the bottom .

    Amos 6:5 __ invent for themselves instruments of music
    __ improvise on instruments of music

    Luke 7:47 __ her sins , which are many , are forgiven -- for she loved much
    __ her sins , which were many , have been forgiven , hence she has shown great love

    Ex.11:8 __ all these your servants ... he went out from Pharaoh
    __ all these officials of yours ... he left Pharaoh

    1 Sam. 11:2 __ that I gouge out all your right eyes
    __ namely that I gouge out everyone's right eye

    Micah 1:11 __shall take away from you its standing place
    __ shall remove its support from you

    Zech . 3:3 __ Now Joshua was standing before the angel , clothed with filthy garments
    __ Now Joshua was dressed with filthy clothes as he stood before the angel

    Ps. 86:11 __ unite my heart
    __ give me an undivided heart

    Deut. 29:5 __ your sandals have not worn off your feet
    __ the sandals on your feet have not worn out

    Matt. 12:34 __ how can you speak good
    __ How can you speak good things

    Heb. 11:16 __ for he has prepared for them a city
    __ indeed , he has prepared a city for them

    1 Kings 19:21 __ took the yoke of oxen and sacrificed them and boiled their flesh with the yokes of the oxen and gave it to the people , and they ate . Then he arose and went out after Elijah and assisted him .
    __ took the yoke of oxen and slaughtered them ; using the equipment from the oxen , he boiled their flesh , and gave it to the people , and they ate . Then he set out and followed Elijah , and became his servant .

    Ps. 39:9 __ I am mute
    __ I am silent

    Ps. 119:86 __ because there God had revealed himself to him
    __ because it was there that God had revealed himself to him

    Ps. 122:5 __ There thrones for judgment were set
    __ For there the thrones for judgment were set up

    Luke 22:35 __ They said , " Nothing ."
    __ They said , " No , not a thing . "

    Isaiah 6:2 __ and with two he flew
    __ and with two they flew

    Isaiah 22:16 __ What have you to do here , and whom have you here
    __ What right do you have here ? Who are your relatives here

    Luke 19:32 __ So those who wwere sent went away
    __ So those who were sent departed

    Matt. 4:4 __ Man shall not live by bread alone
    __ One does not live by bread alone

    2 Chron. 32:21 __ So he returned with shame of face
    __ So he returned in disgrace

    Esther 2:10 __ Esther had not made known her people
    __ Esther did not reveal her people
     
  9. Deacon

    Deacon
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    Rippon, these examples demonstrates the difficulty translators have, especially if they want to claim to have a literal translation.

    The example in 1 Sam. 11:2 is most interesting:
    __ that I gouge out all your right eyes (ESV)
    __ namely that I gouge out everyone's right eye (NRSV)

    I like the NRSV better but can see why the translators of the ESV went the way they did.

    In Hebrew the word for EYE is singular…but the NRSV uses the word EVERYONE which is not a proper translation for the word, at.tem.
    Literally it should read: “gouge (out) all your right eye”.

    Where you claim that the ESV uses time-warped English, I would say it uses Hebrew-warped (or Greek-warped) English.

    This is a strength of the New American Standard Version, to which the ESV stands up to quite well.


    Additionally, I’m finding I like the choices that the ESV has made regarding many textual variants.
    Here’s an example I found today:

    "We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,"
    (1 Corinthians 10:9, ESV also KJV, NRSV, RSVnote, NEBnote, TEVnote )
    Seen in the earliest known text p46 and in D G K Psi 614 630 1241 1739 1881 2495 Byz Lect lat vg syr(p,h) cop

    Compare with:
    "Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents."
    (1 Corinthians 10:9, NASB95 –also ASV, RSV, NASV, NIV, NEB, TEV)
    Seen in S B C P 33 104

    Rob
     
    #9 Deacon, Nov 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2006
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