ESV Reformation Study Bible on Matthew 24

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by APuritanMindset, Mar 28, 2005.

  1. APuritanMindset

    APuritanMindset
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    My friend and I were discussing some end times stuff, and I decided that, for a different perspective on things (both her and myself being raised in homes where the view portrayed in the Left Behind series was taught as the truth) to look at the note in my copy of The Reformation Study Bible . Here is our text and the study note. Let's discuss it, shall we?

    24:4-14 Wars, earthquakes, persecutions, and false prophets are all signs of Jesus' coming, but they indicate only the certainty of judgment, not its time (vv. 6,8). Such signs characterize the entire period between His resurrection and His coming in judgment. Knowing when Jesus would return would lead His disciples to laziness and laxity in their watchfulness. The "when" (v. 3) that Jesus gives is task oriented: it is after the gospel has been preached to the nations (v. 14).
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    All the signs were fulfilled in the 1st century.

    That is a good Study Bible by the way.
     
  3. Paul33

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    No, all the signs were not fulfilled in the first century. The "days of distress" have not been fulfilled. See. Daniel 12:1-2, 2 Thess. 2:1-8.

    When Michael ceases restraining, then the lawless one will be revealed and the days of distress will commence.
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Thats a switch Calvinist now have there own Bible. I'll have to go take a look.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  5. mprivett

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    ILUVLIGHT,

    Calvinism does not equal Amill, Postmill, or Preterist. I believe the Bible teaches Calvinistic soteriology and pre-Mill, pre-Trib eschatology.
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    Dan 1: 4"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end ;

    Was Peter speaking of a different "time of the end" when he spoke these words concerning his time?

    I Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

    Dan 12:6And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
    7Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished .

    This was the time of the Fall of Jerusalem and the end of Temple worship.

    2 Thessalonians 1
    1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, to the assembly of Thessalonians in God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ:

    Written to a specific people nearly 2000 years ago. Not to us.

    4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Did Paul lie to them about the relief that would come to them?
    Was Paul giving them a false hope? Was Paul clueless?
     
  7. APuritanMindset

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    Not a good arguement. If it isn't applicable to all of us, then neither are quite a few of Paul's letters. And Paul himself even says that ALL Scripture is profitable. And Peter includes Paul's letters in his definition of Scripture.
     
  8. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    Matthew 24:6-9:

    And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not
    troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not
    yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against
    kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in
    various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they
    will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be
    hated by all nations for My name's sake.

    I think that these warnings from Matthew 24 sound a lot like da seals that are openned in Rev. 6:

    1 - The rider of the first horse has a bow. The bow was used for war
    at a distance, this represents war or maybe rumors of war, since
    there is no mention of arrows.

    2 - The second horseman has a sword. Swords are used for close-up,
    hand to hand battles.

    3 - The third horse represents famine.

    4 - The fourth horse is death by sword, hunger, death, and by beast.

    5 - Under the alter are "souls of those who had been slain for the
    word of God and for the testimony which they held" (martyrs).

    6 - "There was a great earthquake..."
     
  9. APuritanMindset

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    Hm...I hadn't really made that connection, but that is very interesting.

    You see, in my eschatological upbringing, what Jesus said and what was said in Revelation were almost always kept seperate. It was like what Jesus said didn't really have any bearing on Revelation.

    One thing I can say, though, is that it doesn't make a case for a pre-trib rapture stand very well, at least based on my reading of that.
     
  10. JohnB

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    All study bible have a slant and you need to be aware of it.

    The "Reformation Study Bible" reflects Calvinism, covanental theology, infant baptism and amillenialism. It is patterned on the original Geneva Study Bible of the 1500's. Probably carried mostly by Presbys.

    On the other side, for example, the Scofield Study Bible reflects premillenial dispensational, believers baptism theology. Mostly carried by Baptists.

    Use whichever, but read critically and be aware of presuppositions and biases in intepretation.
     
  11. APuritanMindset

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    Well, considering that I am a Calvinist, I consider covenantal theology to be pretty, infant baptism to not be condemned in Scripture, and in some ways I lean toward Amillennialism in my eschatology, it is the perfect Study Bible for me :D
     
  12. JohnB

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    Gee, I wouldn't have known from your handle...;)
     
  13. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    APuritanMindset:
    Maybe the passage in Matt. 24 is not refering to the rapture, but to the second-coming. I'll admitit, i'm a pretribber. I might be going out on a limb here, but, Mathew's gospel was written for the benefit of the Jews. During the tribulation, the Jewish nation will look upon Jesus "whom they have pierced" and many will be converted. Maybe the warnings in Matt. 24 are not directed to us christians in the 'church age' but to the converted Jews during the great tribulation. Just a thought...
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

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    richard,

    Can you find a verse in Matthew chapter 24 saying Christ will come back before tribulation?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    That is my position as well as many others of every eschatological view.

    That was fulfilled at the cross:

    John 11:36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
    37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

    See Zech. 12:10

    That would violate APuritanMindset 's statement of:

    If it isn't applicable to all of us, then neither are quite a few of Paul's letters. And Paul himself even says that ALL Scripture is profitable.

    I wonder if Paul considered the OT as scripture???
     
  16. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    Deaf:
    No. I do not believe that the rapture and the second coming are the same event.

    Me? in violation? [​IMG]
    I don't think that Zach 12 was totally fulfilled at the cross (of course now i have to go back and study more!). While Jesus was hanging on the cross, they obviously saw Him. I could be wrong, but, I think that Zach 12 is talking about a future time when they will take a second look and come to realize that Jesus was the promised Messiah.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    If John is not quoting from Zech. 12 then what passage is he quoting from?

    John 11:36For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
    37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

    If you wish to put Zech 12 in the future, then you must find another OT passage that predicted what John was quoting. If there is none, then it seems Zech was speaking of this event and time-frame.


    Ed, I was wondering when you would paste that from your Word file document.
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

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    Richard,

    You saying, rapture and second coming are not the same event.

    Telling me, aren't Matthew 24:30-31 same with 1 Thess. 4:16-17 talking about rapture at Christ's coming?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Maybe you don't have the gift of
    have descernment? O use .txt files and
    notepad. some of my files are 10 years old.
    Strange how the same argements come
    up again and again.

    Grasshopper: "All the signs were fulfilled in the 1st century"

    Yep. And in the second century and the
    third, and the forth, and so forth,
    and the 20th century, and probaby
    athe 21st century if the Lord taries.
    Matthew 24:4-14 are the signs that
    the Church age (the Gentile age, the Age
    of Grace) is here. So when we hear of
    a great tsunami - church age continues.
    When we hear of a new false messiah, the
    cuhurch age continues. The chuch age
    will continue until the pre-tribulation
    rapture takes the largely gentile church
    age elect saints out of this world.
    THen the tribulation 7-year-day will start.
     

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