Eternal Consequences

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, May 31, 2011.

?

Are the words 'saved' and 'condemned' in Mk 16:16 referring to eternal consequences?

  1. Yes

    90.0%
  2. No

    10.0%
  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16:16

    Yes or no; are the words 'saved' and 'condemned' in Mk 16:16 referring to eternal consequences (e.g. 'saved from eternity burning in hell' or 'condemned to eternity burning in hell')?

    If yes, can you build a case from scripture to prove it?

    ( I hope to discuss also other 'eternal consequence' passages on this thread; Mk 16:16 seems a good place to start)

    I vote no. I don't believe eternal consequences were the immediate intent of this statement by Christ.
     
    #1 kyredneck, May 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2011
  2. Siberian

    Siberian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is the alternative? In other words, if this does not have eternal consequences in view then the question would be, in what sense is one saved or condemned in Mark 16.16?

    I will add, though, that this passage is highly suspect on a textual basis, and was most likely added in the 2nd century.
     
  3. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    To the PB or Primitive Baptist, eternal salvation is strictly and only a work of God and man can do nothing to obtain eternal salvation.. ie. faith/believe.
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,904
    Likes Received:
    94
    I would think that every Calvinist would believe the same thing.
     
  5. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    No way!
    They steer overly clear of such statements and specifically deny it when asked.

    Calvinist/Reformed persons hold that man MUST believe in order to 'receive' eternal life. They state that God does it all but that man must believe on his own.

    Their distinction is that since God changes their nature and thus changes their desire and gives them 'saving' faith, that when a man believes unto eternal life... that belief is the act of God manifesting itself - YET - it is mans decision.
     
    #5 Allan, May 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2011
  6. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Those who believe on the Lord Jesus are baptized by the Holy Spirit and are eternally saved, those who don't believe (i.e. continuously reject) Christ a condemned.

    John 3:
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    Jesus stated the same thing in verse 18 those who refuse to believe (believeth not) are condemned already. What brings eternal condemnation according to Christ "unbelief."
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    “The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.” C. Hodge

    Answer:
    Mk 16:16 is immediately referring to the Jews of 'that generation'. Their belief or unbelief would ultimately determine whether they were 'saved from' or 'condemned to' the casting forth of Mt 8:12, or the wrath of Mt 3:7 & Lu 21:22,32, or the destruction of Acts 3:23, or the breaking off of Ro 11:20, etc..

    Explanation:
    Determining what 'the eleven' (Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, was absent) comprehended Christ to say (or NOT to say) in the preceding verse 15, leads to clues for what is actually meant by 'saved' and 'damned' in verse 16:

    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. Mk 16:15

    Luke records Christ's words to 'the eleven':

    But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8

    (Note Christ said, 'ye shall' be my witnesses unto the end of the earth. He told them, 'the eleven', that they indeed would do it.)

    A few weeks earlier Christ had told them in the Olivet Discourse:

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

    (Note Christ said that the gospel of the kingdom would be preached in the whole world BEFORE that generation had passed away.)

    In Acts 2 Luke records:

    5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem JEWS, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
    6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2

    I suggest to you that the preaching of 'the eleven' on the day of Pentecost itself became a 'gospel bomb' that was heard 'unto the uttermost part of the earth'. After hearing and believing the gospel and themselves having received power from the Holy Spirit, those 'Jews from every nation' left the celebration of Pentecost at Jerusalem and went back to their homes carrying the gospel of the kingdom with them.

    Paul verifies the fulfillment of Mt 24:14 here:

    So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

    (Note Paul is referring to JEWS, Israel after the flesh, throughout the context of the 10th chapter of Romans. Referring to JEWS, Paul says, “Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.”)

    and here:

    5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
    6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
    23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1:23

    and here:

    Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16:25-26

    In the 10th chapter of Acts:

    We're given a detailed account of how the Spirit worked on both ends to bring Peter and Cornelius together for the purpose of bringing the gospel to Cornelius (a Gentile).

    In the 11th chapter of Acts:

    Peter is called upon by the circumcision at Jerusalem to explain his actions (going in to men uncircumcised). After Peter related the events of Acts 10 there is rejoicing among them because of the obvious conclusion, “Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life” (do you believe that 'life' means 'immortality' (e.g. eternal consequences) here? [Acts 11:18]).

    The significant conclusion to draw from this is that it is obvious that neither 'the eleven' nor the circumcision at Jerusalem comprehended the statements to them of Mk 16:15, or Acts 1:8, or Mt 28:19,20 to include the Gentiles, but only the Jews that were among the nations. It is apparent that they were still operating under the charge of Mt 10:6.

    In Galatians 2:

    7 but contrariwise, when they saw that I had been intrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, even as Peter with the gospel of the circumcision8 (for he that wrought for Peter unto the apostleship of the circumcision wrought for me also unto the Gentiles);
    9 and when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, they who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the circumcision;

    Again, it is apparent that James, Cephas and John did not comprehend the statements of Mk 16:15, or Acts 1:8, or Mt 28:19,20 to include the Gentiles, or they would have never so readily left 'the gospel of the uncircumcision' to Paul; indeed, they would never have even made a distinction between 'the gospel of the uncircumcision' and 'the gospel of the circumcision'. To do so would have been to blatantly disobey their Master if the Gentiles had been included in His statements to them of Mk 16:15, Acts 1:8, and Mt 28:19,20.

    The gospel was to 'the Jew first', and for good reason. There was a very serious time line involved for every Jew of 'that generation' alive on the planet. The urgency of the message to the Jew was 'Save yourselves from this crooked generation' (Acts 2), and 'Every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people' (Acts 3).

    Consider what was coming upon 'that generation':

    upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23:35,36

    God made sure that every Jew on earth of 'that generation' was given the chance to 'hearken to that prophet' before the wrath came. All the Jews of 'that generation' on earth heard the gospel, and were given the chance to repent and avoid the wrath and the curses of the OT that were to come on the nation of Israel.

    Mk 16:16 is immediately referring to the Jews of 'that generation'. Their belief or unbelief would ultimately determine whether they were 'saved from' or 'condemned to' the casting forth of Mt 8:12, or the wrath of Mt 3:7 & Lu 21:22,32, or the destruction of Acts 3:23, or the breaking off of Ro 11:20, etc..
     
    #7 kyredneck, May 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2011
  8. Siberian

    Siberian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you take "whole creation" in v. 15 to mean just the Jews in the creation? Certainly, Matt 28.19 could not have meant only the Jews among the nations (the Jews are never referred to as the nations, in fact, the nations is a way to distinguish the gentile world from the Jews. If you can find a place in either the Bible or in the Rabbinical literature that uses 'nations' or 'all of creation' to describe Jews, I would be surprised.).

    Even if the apostles missed that (in its fullness, and I think that you demonstrated that they did to an extent), it seems clear from the language in both of these parallel chapters that Jesus' charge went beyond the Jews. You cannot limit Jesus' meaning because of Peter's (et. al.) poor comprehension of his words (how many times was Jesus misunderstood?), and clearly they needed further divine instruction on God's global plan. But God's global plan was already being revealed clearly by Mk 16.

    So if the Jews are not exclusively in mind, your conclusion is undermined and it cannot mean anything less than eternal consequences.
     
    #8 Siberian, May 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2011
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    THREE TIMES Paul verifies the fulfillment of Mt 24:14.
     
  10. asterisktom

    asterisktom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,284
    Likes Received:
    20
    I love it when people are so authoritative on what and how we believe. I guess this "proves" that I am not a Calvinist.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,904
    Likes Received:
    94
    Is this true KyRed?
     
  12. Siberian

    Siberian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not so sure that we can call either of those passages a verification of the fulfillment of Matt 24.14 AND limit the meaning of 24.14 to the Jews. In Romans 10, the Jews are in mind, but why does that passage limit Mark to mean only the Jews?

    Neither is there warrant to view the progressive order of the world-wide spread of the gospel as any sort of verification for a Jewish-only meaning for 'all the nations' and 'all of creation', et. al. in the Gospels.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    I don't know why.

    Because it's apparent that the 'hearers', the ones that that command was addressed to, understood it to mean Jews, not Gentiles.

    "The progressive order of the world-wide spread of the gospel" is not what's being debated here. It's the meaning of 'saved' and 'damned' in Mk 16:16.
     
  14. Siberian

    Siberian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    Also, there is a huge difference between "all the nations" and "Jews from every nation".
     
  15. Siberian

    Siberian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I were to write an essay on how the gospel went to Russia, would you think that I believed that the gospel ONLY went to Russia or only was meant to go to Russia? Paul was discussing the Jews in Rom 9-11, but that does not limit Matt 24 or Mark 16 to the Jews-only. 'The nations' usually draws a distinction.


    What if Peter, et. al. didn't quite get Jesus full meaning (that the gospel was now to be preached to the nations even beyond the Jews. By the end of Acts they certainly did understand that God wanted the gospel to go to the Gentile Nations.



    Yes, but you are supporting your interpretation of saved and damned with whether or not the Evangelist had 'the nations' or Israel in mind in Mk 16.15. The gospel went to the Jews first, but that does not limit Mark 16.15 to mean Jews only.
     
    #15 Siberian, May 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2011
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    In the OP I requested, "If yes, can you build a case from scripture to prove it?"

    I've presented my case as to why I don't see 'saved' and 'damned' in Mk 16:16 to imply eternity in heaven or hell.

    Instead of criticizing, can you present a case, from scripture, that shows sozo in Mk 16:16 to have eternal consequences?

    [edit] ....and while you're at it, does "the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth" [Mt 8:12] carry eternal consequences?
     
    #16 kyredneck, May 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2011
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    Again, "The progressive order of the world-wide spread of the gospel" is not what being debated here. It's the meaning of 'saved' and 'damned' in Mk 16:16.

    Again, "The progressive order of the world-wide spread of the gospel" is not what being debated here. It's the meaning of 'saved' and 'damned' in Mk 16:16.

    I believe it's apparent 'the eleven' had Israel in mind, and once again, "the progressive order of the world-wide spread of the gospel" is not what being debated here. It's the meaning of 'saved' and 'damned' in Mk 16:16.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    .... Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life. Acts 11:18

    Does 'life' here mean 'eternal' life?

    Were all non-Jews going to hell for all eternity prior to this?
     
  19. thomas15

    thomas15
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    0
    In all of the human experience, salvation is by grace through faith in the risen Son of God. A good portion of the human experience lived and died before the cross AD 33. Those before the cross had their sins forgiven by the shed blood of Christ. Those after the cross had their sins forgiven by the shed blood of Christ. We are saved, not because of anything we can or will do but rather by the work Jesus did for us at the cross, salvation is a free gift given to those who will come to Christ, confess their need for salvation and place their faith and trust in Him for their salvation.

    What the the OP is trying to do is make a connection between the sacrifice at the cross with the second coming of Christ. We are not saved by the second coming of Christ. We are saved by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, confirmed by His resurrection. The only question of importance is, are you trusting in Christ?

    The issue that the OP has not come to grips with is can we trust the Word of God to be accurate. My answer is yes, not sure about the OP. The Bible gives lots of details about the second coming. Most of those details have not been seen in history. It is very difficult to make the case that the OPs church is the living example of the Kingdom of Christ. I seriously doubt it. I know every Bible believeing church I have been in has some flaws from a Biblical prespective.

    We know from the Scriptures that when the Kingdom promised to the prophets arrives, neighbor will not have to tell his neighbor about the Lord, for all will know Him. No need to send out missionaries or witness to our friends. That is one of the features of life in the New Covenant Kingdom, Jeremiah 31:33-34

    This leaves us wih a decision to make, do we trust the plain simple teaching of the Holy Bible or some well intended person on the internet?
     
    #19 thomas15, May 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2011
  20. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    My answer is "yes", IN A COVENANTAL SENSE; and "no", IN A SALVIFIC SENSE.

    I agree with the PB view of regeneration inasmuch as the new birth is the single requirement for eternal salvation. However, it is normal for the professed believer to receive water baptism as the visible sign of the new birth, i.e., the New Covenant; such that those who refuse the water signify their refusal of Christ.
     

Share This Page

Loading...