Eternal dwelling in heaven or hell

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Gina B, Jun 9, 2004.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    "10. In the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, the everlasting conscious suffering of the lost in hell and the fellowship of the saved in heaven"

    This is part of the belief statement of a church I was looking at.

    Almost every Christian church I know of has such a statement.

    Is there any truth in that at all though???
    Isn't the earth going to be remade for believers to dwell on? Isn't hell going to be no more when it is cast into the lake of fire to be destroyed?

    Gina
     
  2. Lacy Evans

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  3. Marcia

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    Hell, meaning Hades or the grave, will be destroyed, but eternal conscious suffering for the lost is taught in scripture. This debate has been going on in the Other Religions forum though I think it's maybe come to end or almost has; not sure.

    I posted a lot of articles and scriptures there about how the Bible teaches eternal conscious suffering for the lost.

    The statement of faith for the site of the article posted by Lacy says this:
    Hell is the grave where unbelievers consciously await judgment. They will be taken from hell, judged at the Great White Throne, and then cast into the lake of fire along with Satan and the beast.

    As far as believers dwelling on earth, the Bible seems to say that the new heaven will come to the new earth -- sort of like heaven on earth. I always thought of believers being in heaven 'up there' but actually heaven is just the presence of God with no sin. After sin and evil are cast away, then maybe the new heaven and new earth merge, so the Garden of Eden is more or less restored (except it's better).

    But I have done no study in eschatology as of yet - just heard lectures, sermons, and discussions on it.
     
  4. Marcia

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    Correction! The debate on eternal punishment was going on in this forum in the thread "Eternal Fire."
     
  5. Gina B

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    Thanks for the link Lacy, that looks like a great site!
    Marcia, I shall check out that thread. [​IMG]
    Gina
     
  6. Daniel David

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    Gina, you are correct in saying that believers will forever dwell upon the earth. In fact, this was the view of the early church for the first 200 years. It wasn't until Origen (who has the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses) introduced the new "spiritualized" hermenuetics.

    The wicked will forever dwell in the lake of fire.

    I strongly caution you on reading too much from "brother" Lacy. He has a bizarre twist of judgment upon believers in the millenium.
     
  7. Marcia

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    Gina, it looks like the guy who runs that site at kingdom.baptist is a follower of Ruckman and is KJVO. Some things look okay and others :( and :confused:
     
  8. Bartholomew

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    The guy who runs that site disagrees with many of the teachings of Ruckman. We are constantly told that the differences in the Bible versions do not affect doctrine. If this is so then the fact that the author of that site uses only the KJV should not be a reason to dismiss what he teaches.

    Daniel David is correct to say that brother Lacy (he should not have put "brother" in inverted commas) does not believe the same things as Mr. David does about the millenium. Mr. David believes that all believers will enter the kingdom, whereas brother Lacy thinks it is a reward that can be forfeighted. Mr. David's position is the most common now, but for a long time most premillenialists held to a position much more like brother Lacy's. And brother Lacy's position seems to be supported much better from the Bible.
     
  9. Lacy Evans

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    Dear Daniel David,

    Do you consider Robert Govett, G.H Peters, J.A. Seiss, Hudson Taylor, D M Panton, Charles Stanley, Zane Hodges, A. E. Wilson, Erich Sauer, W.F Roadhouse, Paul Radar, G. Lang, R. E. Neighbour, or W.H Griffeth Thomas (I could keep going!) brothers or "brothers"? Just Curious. (Because they share(d) most of my "bizzare" views.)

    "Brother" Lacy

    PS. I hope I mis-understood your intentions when you put "brother" in quotes. Are you questioning my salvation? I'm not afraid to admit that hurts. It does. If this was your intention, then mission accomplished.
     
  10. wopik

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    Gina L --

    The word "hell" in Rev 20:13, 14 is Greek, "hades" - the grave. Check this out for yourself, here: http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/


    ===========================================

    Daniel David

    Can you find any Scriipture to back this up, please? Thanks much.
     
  11. Daniel David

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    Wopik, I know you embrace annihilationism (another gospel offering eternal peace apart from the saving grace of God).

    The only way for fire to be eternal is if it never ends. When it is said that the torment of the lost will rise forever and ever, I tend to agree with that.

    Hell (and its occupants), will have to endure eternal suffering and torment in the Lake of Fire.
     
  12. wopik

    wopik
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    Daniel David

    I only embrace annihilationism because that's the way the Bible tells it.

    What if "eternal fire" means a fire that is never quenched - never put out? It keeps on burning until their is nothing left to burn.

    Sodom and Gomorrha "are set forth for AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE" (Jude 7, kjv).

    Those two cities are not still burning. The "eternal fire" that burned them up went out, when there was no more city to burn.

    I agree with you; "eternal" sounds like it is supposed to go on for ever and ever. But that's not the biblical example, especially here with these two cities.
     
  13. Daniel David

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    Wopik, a few things in which you are in grave error:

    1. Your little "what if" is meaningless. It can't be an eternal fire if it stops? It would really be a temporary fire.

    2. The inhabitants of S & G are still burning. All of them.

    3. Eternal punishment is in contrast to eternal joy. I suppose our complete redemption will only be temporary also then?
     
  14. wopik

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    "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the CITIES about them in like manner.....are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

    The wicked people of S&G are ashes (Malachi 4:1,3 / Matt 3:12).
     
  15. Daniel David

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    The inhabitants of S & G though still live and are suffering every moment.
     
  16. Gina B

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    If hell simply means the grave, why do churches teach that unsaved people suffer in their graves?
    Gina
     
  17. Lacy Evans

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    The word "hell" must be rightly divided. Indeed it often refers to the grave.

    Obviously men don't take weapons to the heart of the earth but normally "hell" is much lower than a grave. There is a "hell" called in scripture the lowest hell.

    This is where souls go. not just bodies. This is where Abraham and the rich man had a discourse. (Theres no talking in a grave-yard except in hollywood stories.)

    Lacy
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Sheol (often translated "hell") may mean the grave or pit where the BODY is, though most often it is used of the abode of the dead where the SOUL is.

    It is a real place. Jesus used the burning garbage dump outside Jerusalem (g'hinnom) as a graphic picture to help us visualize the spiritual place of sheol/hades.

    And He used a picture of a new Jerusalem with gates from pearls, etc, to help us visualize the spiritual place of His bride.

    I like the pictures. Graphic, but showing by earthly illustration the spiritual truth.
     
  19. wopik

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    Dr. Bob --

    Our weekly thursday Bible study group discovered that wicked sinning souls die. Back in December,we read in the Bible: "the soul that SINS, it shall DIE" (Ezekiel 18:4, 20).

    We searched the Bible thoroughly and could not find a contrary statement in the Bible.


    We discovered that another human being can not permanently take you life, your soul (Matt 10:28), but God can destroy forever your soul or life in gehenna fire (Ezekiel 18:4, 20).
     
  20. Dr. Bob

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    And by a "soul" that "dies" you interpret it how?

    It is NOT a body that "dies". The souls - Death and hades - will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death. That is a continuous torment for eternity. Souls of the unregenerate.

    To teach that unsaved will NOT suffer the second death in eternal hell is absolute heresy. I would suggest a little more study.

    BTW, it is certainly not "baptist", although I'm sure that there have been some birds roosting in the baptist branches that have taught such error. It is not "orthodox" Christian doctrine (see Josh McDowell's Handbook of Religions for the lists of what is "orthodox" and what is "heterodox")

    After all, the Adventist cult were all Baptists to begin with . .
     

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