Eternal dwelling in heaven or hell

Dr Bob Griffin

Thanks for your insightful comments.

"the soul that SINS, it shall DIE" (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). Souls die, is clear enough. That contradicts the term "immortal soul".

The Bible refers to the unsaved, unrepentant as "chaff" or "tares" ---

The Bible does teach that the unsaved will suffer the second death (Rev 21:8). I believe that, and have not said otherwise. Where we differ is that you think they are tormented in this fire for ever; the Bible says they are burned up in this fire, never to exist again.

John the Baptist said the chaff will be burned up with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).


"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among s shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (Isa 33:14).


Isaiah is divinely inspired to talk about the wicked:
"Therefore as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossoms shall GO UP AS DUST: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts....." Isaiah 5:23-24 / Isa 29:5).

Matt 13:30 -- Jesus says, "....Gather together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn" (Matt 13:30).


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Christ’s declaration that the wicked “‘will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life’” (Matthew 25:46) is generally regarded as proof of the conscious eternal suffering of the wicked.

This interpretation ignores the difference between eternal punishment and eternal punishing. The Greek aionios (“eternal”) literally means “age-lasting” and often refers to the permanence of the result rather than the continuation of a process.

For example, Jude 7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent “a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire.” It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.


http://dialogue.adventist.org/articles/10_3_bacchiocchi_e.htm

 

Wopik, the problem with this argument is that the same word for "eternal" in "eternal punishment" is used for "eternal life." They must be the same as this statement is comparing one to the other, using the same word. In fact, this verse is an argument for the eternal suffering of the unrepentant. Eternal continuation of life is contrasted with eternal continuation of punishment (which in both cases is conscious).

 

Wopik, you said, "Our weekly thursday Bible study group. . ."

What church (not specific name but denomination) would this bible study be associated with? I think many of us would like to know.

 

Marcia,

Eternal life goes on forever, without end.

Eternal punish-ment (death) goes on forever, without end.


We must accept hell for what it is: the final punishment and permanent annihilation of the wicked. As the Bible says: “The wicked will be no more” (Psalm 37:10, RSV) because “their end is destruction” (Philippians 3:19).

 

Several psalms, for example, describe the final destruction of the wicked with dramatic imagery (Psalm 1:3-6; 2:9-12; 11:1-7; 34:8-22; 58:6-10; 69:22-28; 145:17, 20). In Psalm 37, for example, we read that the wicked “will soon fade like the grass” (vs. 2); they “shall be cut off . . . and ... will be no more” (vss. 9, 10); they will “perish . . . like smoke they vanish away” (vs. 20); “transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (vs. 38).

Psalm 1 contrasts the way of the righteous with that of the wicked. Of the latter it says that “the wicked will not stand in the judgment” (vs. 5); they will be “like chaff which the wind drives away” (vs. 4); “the way of the wicked will perish” (vs. 6). In Psalm 145, David affirms: “The Lord preserves all who love him; but all the wicked he will destroy” (vs. 20). This sampling of references on the final destruction of the wicked is in complete harmony with the teaching of the rest of Scripture.

The prophets frequently announce the ultimate destruction of the wicked in conjunction with the eschatological day of the Lord. Isaiah proclaims that “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed” (Isaiah 1:28). Similar descriptions are seen in Zephaniah (1:15, 17, 18) and Hosea (13:3).

The last page of the Old Testament provides a descriptive contrast of the destiny of believers and unbelievers. On those that fear the Lord, “the sun of righteousness shall rise, with healing in its wings” (Malachi 4:2). But with unbelievers the day of the Lord “shall burn them up. . . so that it will leave them neither root nor branch” (Malachi 4:1).


The New Testament follows closely the Old in describing the end of the wicked with words and pictures denoting total annihilation.

Jesus compared the utter destruction of the wicked to such things as the weeds that are bound in bundles to be burned (Matthew 13:30, 40),

the bad fish that is thrown away (Matthew 13:48),

the harmful plants that are rooted up (Matthew 15:13),

the fruitless trees that are cut down (Luke 13:7),

the withered branches that are burned up (John 15:6),

the unfaithful tenants who are destroyed (Luke 20:16),

the evil servant who will be cut in pieces (Matthew 24:51),

the antediluvians who were destroyed by the Flood (Luke 17:27),

the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who were destroyed by fire (Luke 17:29),

and the rebellious servants who were slain at the return of their master (Luke 19:14, 27).

All these illustrations graphically depict the ultimate destruction of the wicked.

The contrast between the destiny of the saved and that of the lost is one of life versus destruction.

 

You know, Wopik, many people have refuted your arguments from scripture but you obviously are not interested.

Of course, my guess is that you will probably just start another thread here with the same topic, though you are supposed to be a Baptist to do so in this forum, and yet your view is not Baptist, nor is it the view of most of Christendom. I think the moderators are being very lenient if they keep letting you do this. Personally, I don't think a Baptist thread should be a platform for aberrant views.

You never anwered me about what church you do your Bible study with.

 

Marcia,

Our thursday Bible study is with Friends, from a variety of different faiths - interdenominational - I guess you could say.
We have no religious or political agenda, no party spiel to adhere to, other than just studying the Bible.

Everyone puts in their 2cents, like we're doing here. We don't always agree with each other, but we are good listeners, and some good understanding flows out of it.

And yes, I agree with you, the moderators here have been quite godly and generous. God Bless them; they have been given the patience of JOB.

 

Daniel David,

You have not answered Lacy’s question. In one of your posts in this thread, when referencing Lacy, you put the word brother in quotation marks. Are you suggesting thereby that Lacy is not our brother in Christ? Yes or No?

 

Patience is not always a virtue!

 

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

doesnt this scripture support the idea that Jesus fills both heaven and hell blending together the two with the addition of his righteousness.

 

Many churches teach that those who reject Christ will spend eternity in a never ending fire! An eternal fire that will never be quenched. This teaching is based on the belief that the soul cannot die, but is this true?

The word "soul" is translated from the Hebrew word nephesh (Strong's #5315). It is defined as "A breathing creature." The word nephesh is translated from the primary root word naphash which means to breathe.

This is why the Bible explains in Gen. 2:7: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (nephesh). The KJV translates living being as "living soul."

By definition, a soul is a breathing creature.

Therefore, when the body quits breathing it cannot exist.

Man does not have a soul within himself. He is a soul. Jesus said not to fear man but rather to "Fear Him [God] who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Mt. 10:28).


Again in Luke 12:5 Jesus informs us to, "Fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell..." These two verses as well as others that speak of hell fire are translated from the word geenna - referring to the Valley of Hinnom where the citizens of Jerusalem burned their trash.

Jesus said that God is able to destroy both soul and body in this fire.

If He can destroy the soul in this fire, it cannot be immortal.

 

Gina, I was referring to Wopik's well-known and admitted annihilationsist views. He very strongly advocates the view that unbelievers are destroyed and do not suffer eternal torment. He has stated this in several threads on hell or related topics. This is definitely not a Baptist view, nor an orthodox view in Christianity. I have discussed this with him at length, though maybe mostly on threads in the Other Religions forum.

I think I just posted that comment here because it's hard to keep all the threads straight when hell or afterlife has been a topic on several of them lately.

 

Gina, I was thinking of the Eternal Fire thread that is in this forum, Baptist Theology and Bible Study. There was a lot of discussion there on annihilationism.

But I'm sorry if my remarks on this thread were inappropriate.

 

Thanks for your reply, Gina.

Yes, the original topic here was slightly different but encompasses the idea of everlasting punishment for unbelievers, which ends up being the topic everytime hell is mentioned on a thread around here (everlasting conscious suffering vs. annihilationism).

 

To reply to the topic of dwelling in heaven, it seems that Rev 21 is saying that the new Jerusalem descends to the new earth, so it is sort of a heaven/earth merge. In other words, the Garden of Eden is more or less restored and believers dwell with God in the new Jerusalem (which seems to be heaven and earth together). I have not studied this but it came up recently on another list. I had not really given it thought before that.

It fits into the theme of God dwelling in the tabernacle in the wilderness, then Jesus tabernacling among us in flesh, then the final tabernacle of God dwelling among believers at the end.

 

Actually, it is Scriptural, but not in the way everyone thinks.

I cringe everytime I hear someone say that a departed loved one is "walking on those streets of gold." WRONG!!! The streets of gold are mentioned by John in the book of Revelation, where he is describing the New Jerusalem, which descends after the recreation of the world.

The Bible does teach that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And, while we are with the Lord, the Bible doesn't say that we are lounging around in New Jerusalem.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Nice try, Wopik. But no cigar. You cannot use human reason to set biblical doctrine.

The soul is that part of man that lives forever. Man's body dies. Man's spirit is born dead. But man's soul lives forever.

So, what do we do about:
Pro 19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

All of these are OT. And all are speaking of the soul as being life. In other words, these verses are figurative, not literal.

The soul is eternal.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Gina, what has Wopik said that you find convincing?

This is a problem with concordance based theology. You can't simply use a definition for words and think you have found the interpretation. One must consider the word and then consider the Biblical usage of the word.

The Bible clearly speaks of eternal life for the believer. This has a duel meaning in Scripture.

1. Our life never ends.
2. Our life is one of extreme quality (eternal kind of life).

The same is true for eternal death.

1. It will never end.
2. It will be one of extreme dissatisfaction (to say the least).

Now, Wopik hasn't answered the charge of providing people eternal peace from the wrath of God by offering another way of salvation for them.