Eternal Fire

Wopik, you're starting to fly off the charts with your self contradiction. I wonder how far you'll keep going? Let me point out a few of them.

When Paul said there "are 276 souls in the ship" - Acts 27:37 - Paul is not differentiating between the BODY AND THE SOUL ?
Stephen did not differentiate between BODY and SOUL when he said, "Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen SOULS" ?
When the Bible says, "And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls --- the Bible is not differentiating between BODY AND SOUL.
The Apostles baptized 3,000 people [souls] in one day -- Acts 2:41

Our Holy Bible does not use "soul" the way Plato did. Plato's "soul" concepts are foreign to the Scriptures. They can not CORRECTLY be applied.

To heck with Plato. We ain't talking about Plato. Garner Ted told you that the idea came from Plato, and like everything else he told you, you think it's "gospel". You just denied that the Bible ever differentiates between "body" and "soul". Then, in another post, you say...

I have never found a context where "soul" means anything but: person, life or even body, etc.

You think that's an insignificant difference of meaning?? You've got to be kiddin'. No, the real truth is after you posted the first part, you realized you'd made a "boo boo" and tried to cover it over. Look at this...

1Ki 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
1Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
1Ki 17:23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

Elijah was laying on the dead BODY, and prayed that his SOUL would come into him again.

But in another place, you wrote...

These scriptures are plain, clear, and absolutely conclusive evidence that the same word rendered “soul” can refer to a “dead body.”

Pretty broad range of usage for one word, ain't it? Sometimes it can mean "dead body", sometimes someone can be laying on a "dead body" and be praying for the "soul" to return to the "dead body".


But we ain't done with the last question yet. You tried to slide out of it again. You replied...

Jim W
quote:
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And you are saying that "soul" should be translated "life".
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Yes.
The Greek word, "psuche" translated "soul" in this verse has the meaning of "life".

O.K., let's post the verse, but instead of leaving the word "soul"in there, let's put "life".

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the life: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both life and body in hell.

O.K., so when that evil man killed your body, your still alive, right? Because he can't "kill your life"? But that ain't all; nosiree.

In Matt. 16:25, "psuche" is translated "life": "For whosoever shall save his life [psuche] shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it."
Obviously if the words "immortal soul" were substituted for "life" in this reference, the result would be absurd.
In the R.S.V. "psuche" is translated "life" in vs. 26: "For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life [psuche]."
The similarity of context suggests that "life" in Matt. 10:28 should be read for "soul".

This is obfuscation. You haven't yet openly and clearly addressed the question on the other passage. Why do you do this all the time? You ought to know by now that it won't work with me

What is meant by "not able to kill the soul"?

Simply, "Fear not (for an instant) them which kill the body, but are NOT able to destroy you [psuche] utterly and finally." (2Cor. 12:15, kjv see margin).

Now, "psuche" means "YOU"??? You just said it meant "LIFE" a few post ago. And what Jesus really meant was that they can destroy you; just not "utterly and finally", right Wopik? You're nuts. Certifiable. You just like to argue, don't you Wopik.

Of course, when I see what God in the flesh said in that passage, I just naturally am reminded what He said here...

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

That removes a lot of uncertainty and doubts for me, Wopik, because I know HE can be trusted explicitly, and HE doesn't contradict Himself.

Now I want to look at your explanation of the rich man and Lazarus. You wrote...

This rich man opens his eyes in his grave in a resurrection. He is resurrected mortal, just as he was before he died -- not immortal like Lazarus. He sees this lake of fire. Now he knows the frightful, the awful doom he is to be thrust into --to be burned up --destroyed!

In your version of the rich man and Lasarus, the rich man opens his eyes at the resurrection and sees that he is about to be thrown into the lake of fire.

In the Bible's version, it says...

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments...

In your version, he's about to be in torment, in the Bible's version, he's already there.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

In your version, this all takes place at the resurrection, in the Bible's version, Lasarus is carried to paradise by angels while the rich man's body is buried.

In your version, it is a scene of final judgment, after a period of "rest" in the grave. The Bible's version is a little different...

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham's reply?...

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

You're not a stickler for staying true to the text, are you Wopik?

I'll tell you what; I'll stick with the text, and you can stick with Garner Ted, if you want to.

Jim

 

"Unquenchable fire" says it all. The fire cannot be quenched because that which is in it cannot be fully destroyed.

It's interesting that the denominations that teach annihilationism have other aberrant or even heretical teachings. The first thing I rejected from the Bible (before I was a believer) before totally rejecting Christianity was the doctrine of eternal punishment for the lost. Clark Pinnock, who became an annihilationist years a ago, now supports open theism and believes God may have a body.

As I said earlier, to deny eternal punishment is a start at undermining the atonement of Christ.

In response to the posting of Fudge's views, here is an article and excerpt on the "annihilation of hell" in the evangelical church and a response to that:
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0085a.txt

 

This is part 2, with an excerpt, of the above article I posted. The article, btw, mentions Fudge (among others who deny eternal suffering in hell). It responds to many passages that annihilationists try to use to make their case.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0137a.txt

 

And as I posted...

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Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Do you see that word "destroy'? Here it is in Greek..
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622 - Greek
622 apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee
from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
======================================================

... Now look at this passage...

Mar 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Uh-oh. SAME word. 622 apollumi;destroy. So, when the Bible talks about the destruction of Satan and demons it doesn't mean annihilation, but when it talks about the destruction of men, it does mean annihilation, even though the same Greek word is used? Nah, don't think so.

Let's look at this Greek word from a couple of the main Greek dictionaries.

From Kittle's dictionary...

apollumi; "not a simple extinction of existence, but an everlasting state of torment and death."

From W.E. Vines ...

"not the idea of extinction, but ruin, loss. Not of being, but of well being."

Now, from Jamieson, Fausset and Brown...

"..which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell--A decisive proof this that there is a hell for the body as well as the soul in the eternal world; in other words, that the torment that awaits the lost will have elements of suffering adapted to the material as well as the spiritual part of our nature, both of which, we are assured, will exist for ever. In the corresponding warning contained in Luke (Luk_12:4), Jesus calls His disciples "My friends," as if He had felt that such sufferings constituted a bond of peculiar tenderness between Him and them.

And from Robertson's Word Pictures...

...Destroy both soul and body in hell (kai yuxhn kai swma apolesai en geennh). Note "soul" here of the eternal spirit, not just life in the body. "Destroy" here is not annihilation, but eternal punishment in Gehenna (the real hell) for which see on Mat_5:22. Bruce thinks that the devil as the tempter is here meant, not God as the judge, but surely he is wrong. There is no more needed lesson today than the fear of God.
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Jim

 

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Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

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Straight from the lips of Jesus Christ.

Jim

 

Wopik, you come to your conclusions, and base your beliefs on a couple of key premises. Here they are.

)1. That God would be unjust to punish sinners forever for finite sins committed in time and space. Finite sins call for finite punishment.

)2. The Bible reveals that God alone has immortality. (1 Tim. 6:16 ) Therefore, everything else must die.

I can disprove both of those premises completely based on what you've said on this thread. You said...

Rev 20:10 does say the devil will be tormented day and night for ever and ever; but then, who the h*ll cares about him. He deserves it!

Garner Ted wrote...

" Evil supernatural beings do exist. The Bible reveals Satan is eternal and will not be destroyed in the sense of human or physical destruction..."

So, are the fallen angels immortal? Should 1 Tim. 6:16 read "God and the angels alone have immortality"? No. They are not immortal; they will die spiritually - they will be separated eternally from God - which is spiritual death.

Second, Satan is a created being, just as me and you are created beings. Satan's sins were committed in time and space, just as mine and yours were. If God would be unjust to allow infinite punishment for me and you, then He's unjust to allow it for the fallen angels.

God reveals that the punishment for the wicked is the same as the punishment for the fallen angels. ( "cast into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels" ) God reveals that the wicked are the children of the Devil: they'll suffer the same thing their father does.

The good news is that we don't have to; He'll adopt us as His children - if we'll let Him.

Jim

 

No, it wouldn't. My, but you are grasping at straws, Wopik...

Does a dead man feel it if I kick him? Why not? Because he is dead, and his soul is no longer in his physical body that was left here on the earth.

Where is his soul? Well, that would depend on whether or not he accepted Jesus Christ through faith, now wouldn't it? So, either his soul is with the Lord, or his soul is in hell, awaiting final judgement.

Now, would the body of the dead man know whether the lottery ticket that was in his pocket just won 27 million dollars in the powerBall drawing? No, because that which was the life (the soul) is no longer there.

See, this is why cremation doesn't hurt the dead. Or burial. Or being embalmed. (Am I being patronizing enough yet?)

Wopik, I am sorry that you cling to your heretical ideas. I do sincerely pray that you find some good, godly people to study the bible (not bizarre ideas) with. You would do much better to leave the beliefs of the SDA, JW, Church of Christ alone.

Try reading the words of Christ, without all of your presuppositions ripping His words into shreds. You might be surprised. Jesus spoke very clearly about hell.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

No, it doesn't. The rich man knows he has brothers but that's it. He does not know what his friends are doing, what his brothers are doing, he is not feeling the sun shine on his face or seeing the rain fall, he is not going to sleep and waking up, he is not enjoying good food or laughing with his friends, bascially, he is no longer living life and is not cognizant of earthly things the way the living are. That is what the Eccl. verse is talking about. If you just read it in context, you will see that. Eccl. is all about the temporal nature of life on earth.

 

You think there is a soul in man. Man doesn't have a soul, he is a soul (psuche) -- 2 Corinthians 12:15, kjv, margin.


No where in the Bible does it teach that man has an immortal soul inside of him. Immortal soul teaching is in error. </font>[/QUOTE]The real you is the soul and your soul is housed in a body that goes back to the dust after you die. You are plainly saying that when Jesus said ... and I give to them eternal life it is not eternal. When God said everlasting , it is not everlasting. When the Bible said forever and ever it is not forever and ever. Then what it meant?, temporay? Then you mean heaven also is not eternal.

 

Wopik,

First off, you cited the wrong verse:
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, (2 Thess 1:9, ESV)

Let's look at some of this verse, shall we?

The word for 'eternal' ( aionios )- "eternal, belonging to the aion, time in its duration, that is, constant, abiding, eternal...Meanings: (1) Having neither beginning or end (Rom 16:26; Heb 9:14). (2) Without end (Matt 25:41, 46; 2 Thess 1:9)..."

The word for 'destruction' ( olethros)- "from ollumi, to ruin. Ruin; destruction (1 Cor 5:5; 1 Thess 5:3; 2 Thess 1:9; 1 Tim 6:9). The verb as such oes not occur, but the comp. apollumi, to destroy, does. The fundamental thought is not by any means annihilation, but perhaps corruption, an injurouos force, which the subj. exherts or cannot hinder."

{Quotes from the Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, Spiros Zodhiates}

"Never-ending ruin".

A thought: how can you eternally annihilate something? I mean, once it is annihilate it, it is gone. But if it takes forever to annihilate it ('eternal destruction'), then it would be an eternity of torment. Do you see that?

No, YOU can't. But God is a lot bigger than you, and He writes His own rules.

Besides, you have to look to the idea behind the words used, since you are reading a translation of the Greek. In case you didn't know it, Greek is a very picturesque language, with words expressing entire thoughts and ideas, which is diametric opposite of English.

Wopik, you cannot blend OT figurative language, which is using poetic license (and is written in Hebrew, which is more nebulous than Greek!) with NT doctrines. It's like trying to mix concrete blocks...they just don't blend!!!

In Christ,
Trotter

 

You have to read all verses in context, take into account poetic language, etc. which is exactly what you are not doing. The Bible was NOT written in verses, Wopik. It was NOT written in chapters. Chapters and verses were added centuries later. You can pluck a sentence out of any book and make it means something it does not mean if you ignore context. Here's Ps 146.5 in the ESV:

And in the NKJV:

His body returns to earth and his thoughts and plans perish because he is no longer living, can no longer be anyone to count on or to help you. You left out the previous phrase in v. 3:

Don't trust in man because he will die and cannot do anything for you. This has nothing to do with being unconscious at death.

 

Same song, different tune. You gotta get new material, Wopik.

The dead ARE conscious, but not in their physical bodies (it really is a very simple concept). The soul is the life, the part of you that is YOU. It is the part that will never die, ever.

Your body (unless you are a Christian alive when Jesus calls us out) will die and decay back into the dust whence it came one day. Everything that you or I have ever done will eventually crumble and be forgotten. But our souls will live on forever.

After death, a man's soul does not float around like a ghost. It goes to one of two places: with the Lord, or to hell. Again, a very simple concept.

The body remains dead, but the soul never died to start with. At death, the soul and the body are seperated, divided one from the other. The soul cannot remain with the body, as it has a predetermined destination (see above).

Wopik, I can tell that you are of at least average intelligence from the wording you have used in your posts. Why not trying to use some of that and think for yourself, instead of parrotting back what someone has told you. Geez, you sound like some of the KJVO's here on the Board...

In Christ,
Trotter