Eternal Sanctification !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jul 16, 2011.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Jude 1:1

    1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

    Just when is a believer in Christ sanctified ? Is it before they believe or immediately after they believe ? Could it be before they were ever born ? Could it be before the world was ever created ?

    Lets look at the definition of the word sanctified in our text. It is the greek word hagiazō and means:


    to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

    2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God

    a) consecrate things to God

    b) dedicate people to God

    3) to purify

    a) to cleanse externally

    b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

    c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul


    Lets say its the setting apart of one for the dedication and Holy Purpose of God

    In our text above the word sanctified is a perfect passive participle, the subjects have been set apart once and for all, Permanently ! When was this setting apart ? Well according to the text it was before they were called. The calling here I believe to be a subjective inward call by the Holy Spirit as Per Rom 1:6-7

    6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

    7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Rom 8:28

    28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    1 Cor 1:2,24

    2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

    24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    This calling is both inward and effectual and so its placed in time.

    But the sanctification that preceded it was before time, it was God setting them apart from the rest of mankind in the Decree of Election in Christ.

    This their Election in Christ or Chosen in Christ is also said to be of the Father Eph 1:3-4

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    4According as he [The Father] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    The Father hath chosen us in Him. When ? before the the foundation of the world.

    The word chosen is eklegomai and means:

    to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

    a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples

    b) choosing one for an office

    c) of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

    The word is also in the middle voice which means He for Himself. This denotes His own setting apart for Himself whom would be the recipient of all Spiritual Blessings of Salvation through Jesus Christ.

    And this setting apart, sanctification took place before the foundation, so the believer,was set apart or sanctified by The Father before the foundation, this denotes Eternal Sanctification by Election. Believing in Christ in time, is evidence of this Eternal Sanctification before the world began.
     
  2. Dr. Walter

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    Eph. 1:4 According as he [The Father] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Not that we were "holy" before the world began but "THAT WE SHOULD BE" holy in time and space.

    Again you don't distinguish between what is PURPOSED in Christ and what is REALIZED AS FACTUAL REALITY in Christ. The former occurs in eternity while the latter is the working out in time and space.


     
  3. savedbymercy

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    dw:

    You are confusing being set apart and being made subjectively Holy. Those whom God set apart in election, shall be made experimentally Holy in time.

    And you fail to grasp that the elect were sanctified by the Father before they were called inwardly by the Spirit in time.

    The sanctification by the Father of which Jude is referring to is quite distinct from the Sanctification of the Spirit in time. I will be showing the difference as I post.
     
  4. Dr. Walter

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    Here is your problem - We did not exist before the world began except in God's purpose. Hence, the only kind of sanctification or separation that involved us then was one of PURPOSE not one of reality because we had no reality. It was God's PLAN wherein we were sanctified in GOD's MIND but not in any kind of reality as it is God's PLAN that reality generates from. The only FACT was one of PURPOSE not one of ACTUALITY.
     
  5. billwald

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    Then we have reality apart from God's mind? If God took a nanosecond vacation we would still exist?
     
  6. Dr. Walter

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    Nonsensical questions!
     
  7. billwald

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    Then explain. Seems like a yes or no proposition. Either God can create a physical universe in the common meaning of "physical" or he can't.

    You all like to insist that only God could create this universe. What did God create? Is this universe real, physical or is it virtual? "Virtual," as defined by the 2nd definition below. How do we know that we are not made to appear physical by God's software? Does not scripture teach we only exist in the mind of God?

    vir·tu·al/ˈvərCHo͞oəl/Adjective
    1. Almost or nearly as described, but not completely or according to strict definition: "the virtual absence of border controls".
    2. Not physically existing as such but made by software to appear to do so: "virtual images". More »
    Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster
     
  8. Dr. Walter

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    I know of no such scripture that teaches we exist only in God's mind! Before we were created by God we were PURPOSED in God's mind to be created but once created we have concrete physical reality. God is a God of order and reason and therefore like any builder He has a plan before He builds and thus has a purpose before it is accomplished.
     
  9. billwald

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    Then the universe has existence apart from God. Fine with me.

    Can't find the verse I was thinking of.
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    The Creator transcends His creation or there is no such thing as Idolatry but pure pantheism - all is god!
     
  11. billwald

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    Not if God first creates the universe, designs abiogenesis and an evolutionary system for his created universe, puts the system into motion, and steps back. This doesn't make his creation into a god.
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    Set Apart in Eternity Past for a Special Purpose !



    Rom 8:28-30

    28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    This is the Special Purpose of God above all,That His Chosen be conformed into the Image of His Son !
    The True Believer, was set apart [sanctified] for a special and specific purpose in Eternity past to be conformed to the Image of Christ, that He may be the Firstborn of many brethren, that is the Firstborn from the dead.

    These are the ones God foreknew before all worlds. This foreknowledge of them set them apart or sanctified them for the Specific Purpose of being conformed unto the Image of Christ.

    Jeremiah serves as an example of how the Elect were foreknown of God and sanctified before their actual physical existence in time. Jer 1:5

    5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    This is foreknowledge here. Before and Knew, meaning to know beforehand.

    The word before here is the hebrew word terem and means:

    before, not yet, before that

    While you were not yet formed[fashioned] in the belly, before even being conceived into existence, God says I knew thee !

    The word knew is yada` and it denotes an intimacy in knowing. Its the word used when scripture says that Adam knew His wife Eve intimately and She conceived Cain Gen 4:1

    1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

    So God intimately knows the foreknown before they are yet conceived in the womb. And He goes on to say, before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee ! We still do not physically or manifestly exist until we come out of the womb. Well as Jeremiah here, all the foreknown, those who were predestinated to be conformed to the Image of God's Son, they were all sanctified for that Purpose before they came out of the womb, in accordance with having been set apart in Eternal Election in Christ Eph 1:4

    Now this setting apart in the Divine Purpose from Eternity does not preclude Jeremiah or any of the Foreknown being born into the world as sinners by nature, and children of wrath, but it does ensure that they will be born again anew for the fulfillment of the Divine Purpose.

    Yes, when Jeremiah was born as all the elect family of God, He was born a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins like anyone else, or he could be excluded from Solomons inspired words Ecc 7:20

    For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

    or what the inspired Apostle wrote Rom 5:12

    12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    But, sin and death cannot thwart God's Eternal Purpose for the Foreknown, those who have been from before the world began, Sanctified by the Father, in their being Chosen in Christ before the foundation, to be conformed unto His Image.
     
  13. savedbymercy

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    Before they are born !

    The Believer in Christ, not only was sanctified by the Election of the Father in the Son before the foundation Eph 1:4, they were also before they were born into this world as sinners dead in trespasses and sins, and by nature, children of wrath as others [non elect] they were sanctified by the death or blood of Christ. Scriptures to that effect are Heb 10:9-10

    9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    10By the which will we [Believers] are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    You see that ? By the Will of God, that will the Son became incarnate to fulfill, in doing so, He offered His body, that means He died and shed His blood, and that is what sanctified believers to be.

    They are not sanctified through their believing, but through the offering of the body of Christ, meaning His death. The word sanctified here is in the perfect tense in the greek, denoting a act completed once and for all in the past with effects into the present. Those effects include that the elect sinner is born already positionally sanctified or set apart by the blood of Christ, once and for all.

    To say the least, such a one cannot be born legally condemned for their sins even though they have yet to believe, the blood of Christ which positionally sanctified them prevents that !

    Another scripture that proves that Christ death sanctified those He died for positionally Heb 13:12

    12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

    Jeremiah is an example of how the believer is sanctified positionally by the blood of Christ before they are born Jer 1:5

    5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Does this mean that Jeremiah was not born a sinner, a child of wrath by nature even as others ? Of course not, He was born a sinner needing to be saved[converted] by Grace as any other man, however He as well as all True believers had been positionally sanctified for God's Holy purpose[In Christ] before they were born, by the offering of the blood of Christ ! The lamb slain from the foundation..
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
    .............
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    Yes, He has perfected forever [Perfect tense] those who are being sanctified [Presnt tense passive voice]. This means that the sacrifice of Christ ensures the subjective work of the Holy Spirit, He will begin His aspect of Sanctification upon all those who have been perfected postionally by the sacrifice of Christ, which work consisteth in 2 Thess 2:13

    13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    Hence all Three Persons in the One Godhead have a Sanctifying work ! The Fathers from Eternity in His setting apart all those He chose in Christ before the foundation Jude 1:1 and Eph 1:4 , The Son's oblation or offering set them apart Heb 10:10 ; 13:12; and the Holy Spirit sanctifying work which converts 2 Thess 2:13;1 Pet 1:2

    This last one by the Spirit will Last until the day of Christ Phil 1:6

    6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    1 Thess 5:23-24

    23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    They shall be Sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

    Yes, even though the Elect are Sanctified before the world began in God's Eternal Purpose to conform them unto the image of Christ that He may be the Firstborn [from the dead] among many Brethren Rom 8:29-30

    29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    They are Sanctified positionally by the Death of Christ, before they are born by His Death or Blood Heb 10:10-14


    10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    All the elect of God are born Sanctified in this manner before they are even born sinners just as Jeremiah Jer 1:5

    5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Now these things being True, They all must be Sanctified by the Spirit of God, He must perform His Sanctifying work in Them by new Birth. 2 Thess 2:13

    13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    This is when they become experientially sanctified.

    Jesus did Pray for this aspect of their sanctification to come to past. Jn 17:17

    17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    You see, the Elect although sanctified in all other previous respects, are not sanctified by the Truth until this Work of the Spirit comes to pass, which it surely will for all Christ died !
     
  17. billwald

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    I think we will know each other in Heaven. It is called Heaven because we will not have to worry about AIDS or pregnancy. Why else does the NT make a big deal out of having a physical body?
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    How long under Grace ?

    Paul writes to the Believers in Rome Rom 6:14

    14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    For ye are not under law but under Grace ! Paul without question is here writing to Believers, and He states to them "ye are not under law but under Grace ! My question is how long has the Believer been under Grace ? And what put the Believer under Grace ?

    I am persuaded that the Believer, before they actually became a believer in time, has always been under Grace, by the Grace that was given them in their Head Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

    9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    You see that ? Paul says that Grace was given us [Believers] in Christ, When ? Before the world began.

    John Gill says and I quote:

    "which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began;
    it is a gift, and a free gift, not at all depending upon any conditions in the creature, and entirely proceeding from the sovereign will of God; and it was a gift from eternity; there was not only a purpose of grace in God's heart, and a promise of it so early, but there was a real donation of it in eternity: and though those to whom it was given did not then personally exist, yet Christ did, and he existed as a covenant head and representative of his people; and they were in him, as members of him, as represented by him, being united to him; and this grace was given to him for them, and to them in him; in whom they were chosen, and in whom they were blessed with all spiritual blessings. The Ethiopic version reads, "in Christ Jesus, who before the world [was]"; but without any foundation. "

    You see, the Elect because of this Grace given them in Their Head before the world began, because of that, never had their trespasses imputed to their Charge as per 2 Cor 5:19

    19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    So the elect were never legally guilty before God because their trespass in Adam per Rom 5:14

    14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Was not imputed unto them ! They were in the Covenant of Grace !
     
  19. savedbymercy

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    True Believers have always been under Grace, this is in accordance with God's Choice of them before the foundation of the world as Per Eph 1:3-6

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    All True believers were made accepted in the Beloved to the praise of the Glory of His Grace before the foundation.

    They were as early called the Election of Grace Rom 11:5

    5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    This remnant is born sinners as other men and they as other people are by nature children of wrath [in their behaviour] as others, but they have been born as sinners under Grace, because they are of God's Election of Grace and so they must experience all the benefits and effects of Christ redeeming work on their behalf. Though they are sinful in themselves David says they are Blessed because the Lord will not impute sin to their charge Ps 32:1-2

    1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

    2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    These who are so blessed are Christ's seed Chosen in Him before the foundation Isa 53:10

    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    That is what it means to have been Chosen in Him, God gave Him a seed, a Offspring. This Offspring is in the Progenitor like as Levi was in Abraham, in His Loins Heb 7:9-10

    9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

    10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

    You see that ? Levi had no choice but to be of Abraham's seed and be born as that Tribe which would conduct the Priesthood.

    In same like manner, those in Christ's Loins, His seed, had no choice but to be born Spiritually into His Priesthood. 1 Pet 2:9

    9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    Rev 1:5-6

    5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Rev 5:9-10

    9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Long before Abraham was called of God in Gen 12, Levi was in Him, the Levitical Priesthood was in Him, well Christ had a generation and Priesthood in Him 1 Pet 2:9. I hope you are seeing the light of what I am saying. This is why all True Believers have always been under Grace, they must and shall perform their Priesthood. Being born as sinners by nature cannot thwart God's Purpose for this Seed.
     
  20. Dr. Walter

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    There is no such thing as eternal sanctification in regard to application and/or experience EXCEPT in God's design/determined intent. We are not God but that is exactly what you are teaching by your ETERNAL SPIRITUAL UNION heresy. We must be "CREATED in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) which is unnecessary if your theory was correct as we would be in ETERNAL spiritual union with Christ!

    The Biblical parallel to "in Adam" refers only to (1) Representation; (2) individualized through generation. To attempt to make a parallel with PHYSICAL union in Adam to our relationship with Christ is not only absurd, unbiblical but heretical as those "IN ADAM" are EQUAL TO THE NATURE OF ADAM and therefore your unbiblical theory demands all the elect are EQUAL TO THE NATURE OF CHRIST WHO IS GOD. You are teaching polythesim.
     

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