Eternal security and unpardonable sin

"Intentional" or "UN-intentional", sin is still sin,

And if you're not under the law, then no law exit that God, as the Judge, can use to condemn you.

The "GRACE" of God is "TAKING AWAY THE LAW" through Jesus "fulfilling the law".

NO LAW, NO SIN.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (law) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin (and law) of the world.

If we turn this around, we can say Jesus took away the law that condemned us, no law, no violation exist or no sin.

How can you lose salvation if God is not just "justified" by his own laws to condemn you,

Especially a law Jesus took away and God said no longer existed for those "in Christ"??

According to "LAW", God would have to backtrack on what he's said, (lie) and "Unjustly" condemn when no law exist to justify condemnation.

Even as God/Judge, God is "bound" to abide by his laws as much as you or I, or any "judge".

"LAW" is no respecter of persons, not even for God.

Now, do you understand "LAW"???

 

drfuss: Yes, I understand law. But I still don't see where it has anything to do with my part of this discussion, since keeping or not keeping the law does not have anything to do with retaining your salvation.

 

drfuss: I am not going to get into yet another eternal security debate. You have your interpretations of scriptures and I have different interpretations of the same scriptures. This issue has not been resolved for hundreds of years; it will not be resolved here; and I am not going to waste my time here to debate it.

 

It actually has been resolved...roughly 2000 years ago at the cross. Some continue the false interpretation to this day, which I believe Satan has his hand in. ETERNAL life, folks. If we are the hinge of salavation, it is not eternal.

 

drfuss: Webdog, perhaps you have not been following this closely. From my perspective, the issue is:

1. A person who once believed and is not believing when he dies, will go to heaven (Stanley's belief).

2. A person who stopped believing was not really a Christian in the first place (Adrian Roger's belief). This is based on our Sunday morning Bible study book at our church.

3. A Chrsitian can stop believing and therefore forfeit his salvation.

Webdog, you obviously don't believe in #3. Do you agree with Charles Stanley or Adrian Rogers? I know we cannot judge another's salvation, but #2 & #3 are based on written material that I have. Do you agree with #1 or #2?

 

drfuss, perhaps you could define "stops believing".

I don't understand how a person can stop believing in someone they have had an intimate relationship with. No matter what happens, I cannot stop believing in my husband. We have had a 31 year intimate relationship.
So, what do you mean. I obviously don't understand.

 

I'll give you a real life example with a few things changed for obvious reasons. A man pastored a Baptist church for 15 years. He then was convinced that he had been given the gift of tongues and left the church to start a Non-Denominational church. Years later he left his wife and family for another woman. He is now convinced that the entire "Jesus" experiance was not real, just an emotional crutch for the weak.

So, was...

he saved once and now not?

never really saved?

saved despite his unbelief?

I was really hoping this would not go in this direction, but I am afraid it has taken a life of it's own.

 

If at some point he had genuine faith in Christ during his 15 years, he is saved. Justification is a once for all time event. Abraham believed and it was credited as righteousness. The covenants to follow never outweighed his righteousness.

 

So for clarity Webdog and Dr. Timo would be a one while myself and drfuss are threes. That will help clarify the discussion as my previous post about similarities are more between the 2s and 3s, unless someone clarifies my misunderstandings.

Not to debate, but for understanding on my part, how do you reconsile Christ statements to endure in the Revalation to John?

 

drfuss: A good example of stopping believing involves SBC membership. In a SBC church, in order to join church, one must be a believer and be baptized in water. The SBC has about 17 million members in this country. Yet it is generally accepted that only about 6 or 7 million members actually attend SBC churches. Yes, some may have moved on to other churches, But not 60% of them.

Some years ago, I invited someone in my neighborhood to our SBC church. He indicated he was already a member of my church. When I indicated that I had not seen him there, he said he had not been there for about 5 years and did not go anywhere else to church. Here is someone who, in order to join, had to be a Christian. I found out there was a problem in our church (before I started attending), so he just stopped coming. Was he still a believer, I don't know. However, there was no indication that he was still a believer based on his actions or inactions.

My SBC church would say that he was not really a Christian in the first place. However, that leads to questioning everyone's salvation at the time he makes a profession. If someone says he is a believing Christian, I will accept that he is. If he stops believing, I will also accept that also.

I don't know if you have been following this thread. But if you have, you should see that the difference between my SBC church belief and my personal belief is just a matter of definitions and terminology.

Of course if you believe like Charles Stanley who says a person does not have to be a believer when he dies to get to heaven, then it is a basic difference. For that matter, there is a basic difference between my SBC church's belief and Charles Stanley's belief.

 

You have answered your own question. The man says his experience was not real. He never "really" put his faith in Christ, just the idea of Christ.

He wasn't saved. And you can't be saved in a state of unbelief.


I still would like to know how you stop believing. Assuming one had genuine faith in Christ and received the Holy Spirit, does he just wake up one day and decide God doesn't exist? Christ wasn't really God in the flesh? He didn't really die for our sins? He didn't really rise from the dead?

What exactly is it he doesn't believe anymore?

If you have had a real relationship with God, been born again, received the Holy Spirit, how do you convince yourself that it never really happened?
I have had a relationship with my husband since we were teenagers. What must happen for me to stop believing that I had that relationship?

 

Amy,
If I understand you correctly, you then believe one must endure to the end. So do I . The only difference between the two is how we catagorize those who do not. This I see as a minor difference, not a major division that many on both sides make it to be.

 

All those who believe will endure.

You haven't told me how someone stops believing. What is going on in their mind? Have you ever stopped believing something you knew to be true? Like, can you stop believing in gravity?

 

There are many things I once "believed" that now I do not. I once believed that I could get to heaven by being "good". I discovered I was wrong. I once knew that my earthly father could do anything. I learned that he could not.

Many Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Mormons. and the like have stopped believing in what they once did and put their trust in Christ for salvation.

Saving belief includes more than the knowledge that there is. It includes trusting or "placing ones confidence in". The example I gave earlier describes one who no longer believed salvation was real, Hebrews 6 descibes this IMO. I know other who were once saved, who now have no desire to be so because they feel God was unjustified in taking a loved one or similar tragedy. They have lost confidence in God and have no desire to serve or follow Christ. Many 'Christians" have converted to other faiths. You say X, I say Y, the end result is the same. They are currently lost. Unless they place their faith in Christ, they will remain so.

 

My point exactly. The things that you do not believe anymore are things that were never true.

But you will not stop believing something that is true. That's why you will not stop believing in Christ, because He is true.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

But some would rather beleive a lie.

 

I just remembered a verse.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


It is impossible for a believer who has received the Holy Spirit to stop believing because the Spirit is with him 24/7 testifying that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

True. But faith in Christ is not a lie.


Gotta go. :wavey: