Eternal security of the believer

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by dal747, Dec 30, 2006.

  1. dal747

    dal747
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    I had a dicussion with a person from another denomimation on eternal security and I was wondering if anyone can help with kjv scriptures.
     
  2. menageriekeeper

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    I like the verse in my signature, myself.
     
  3. Martin

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    Not really sure what you are asking. In "any" major translation I would say that the "typical" verses would be things like John 5:24, 6:37-39, 10:26-29, 2Cor 1:21-22, 2Cor 5:5, Eph 1:13-14, 1Thess 5:23-24, 2Tim 4:18, Phil 1:6, Rom 8 (whole chapter), Jude 24-25, Heb 7:25, 10:14, etc. A bit of advice, however, don't try to battle out the proof texts. You will gain no ground and, most likely, will be wasting your time. What you need to do is a careful study of the above verses (context, etc) and do a careful study of the verses your friend (who I assume holds to conditional security) will use. Know the other view just as well as you know your view. I would also say that you should do a careful study of human depravity, election, the atonement, God's calling or drawing people to Himself, and perseverance (security). It may take several years to go through all of that, I think it took me nearly eight years to "firm up" my position on this issue. Did I change my view? Yes. I moved from conditional security, to eternal security, to perseverance (which, I believe, is the Biblical view). My point? Take your time, do your homework, and do this with much prayer. Don't rush into a discussion on this. If you rush you will (a) gain no ground or lose ground (b) discredit yourself/your position.

    The Lord be with you.
     
  4. drfuss

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    I know of no scripture that establishes eternal security as a belief. Only scriptures that once you believe in eternal security, you can say: see, that is what that means.

    For instance, John 10: 27-28 - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

    If you already believe in eternal security, you will say that is what these verses mean. However these verses have a condition that the Christian is following Him. If you decide to stop following Him, you take yourself out of His hand. Jesus is polite and does not force Himself on someone that no longer wants Him

    Now what must these verses say to establish eternal security as a belief?
    The verses must say something to this effect: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and thay cannot stop following me: And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

    If you have a scripture that clearly says a Christian cannot stop following Christ, then you have a scripture that establishes eternal security as a belief.

    It has to be explicit, because there are too many scriptures that warn us not to stop following Christ. For example, the Book of Hebrews.
     
  5. LeBuick

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    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    The Holy Spirit has sealed you in Christ. Jesus said no one can snatch you out of His hand. (John 10:27-30) It's a done deal...

    John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.
     
    #5 LeBuick, Dec 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2006
  6. Amy.G

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    The book of Hebrews was written for Jews who were sliding back into the legalism of Judaism. It was not about the security of the Christian believer.
    As Lebuick quoted, we are sealed in the Holy Spirit. Only the King can break the seal. Since we are sealed "until the day of redemption", the seal is secure, then we are redeemed. Nothing in between. :)
     
  7. Martin

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    Ok, I don't really want to get into a debate on this issue however I do think a correction is needed here. As students of the Bible we must be careful, when it comes to any issue, to do exegesis and avoid all forms of eisegesis. The above statement is a perfect example of what happens when we don't avoid eisegesis.

    Jesus does not, in any way, give a condition in John 10:27. Jesus states that the people He is talking to are "not" His sheep (Jn 10:26) then He identifies His sheep (Jn 10:27). The greek tense of the term "follow" does not imply, nor does it require, a condition. John 10:27 is a statement of simple fact. Christ's sheep know Him, He knows them, and they are following Him. This follows the pattern that Jesus has laid out, throughout John 10, where sheep follow their shepherd and no one else (Jn 10:3-5,14,16, 27). In the same way that sheep follow only their shepherd, Christ's sheep follow Him. There are no conditions in this verse it is a simple verse of identification. So really verse 27 does not, by itself, teach/deny eternal security.

    Though I realize that it can be tough to avoid eisegesis, we must go out of our way to avoid reading our theological positions into the Biblical text.
     
  8. LeBuick

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    Extremely great response, we can't confuse the "Lords sheep" with sheep or wolves in sheep clothing mixing into the fold. The Lord makes it very clear, "... and they follow me..." Edit to add this... He can't mean physically following him as in sheep walking behind their shepherd because he also told us how the good shepherd will leave the 90 and 9 to go after the one lost sheep. He goes after the one lost sheep because it is HIS sheep. This means the word follow has other implications as in faith, believing, carrying a cross etc... No, before you ask, carrying a cross is not a condition to be saved, you carry your cross because you are saved.

    Also, we must keep in mind the word "erternal" has a definition in itself. It can't be eternal and have a way of ending at the same time.
     
    #8 LeBuick, Dec 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2006
  9. drfuss

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    LeBuick writes:
    "Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

    This is a good scritpure meant to encourage Christians to continue trusting in Christ. But it does not say a christian cannot stop trusting in Christ. Therefore it does not establish eternal security as a belief. As long as a Christian continues to trust in Christ, he is secure and sealed.

    Any G. wirtes:
    "The book of Hebrews was written for Jews who were sliding back into the legalism of Judaism. It was not about the security of the Christian believer."

    The book of Hebrews was just an example, there are many other scriptures that conflict with eternal security. As usual, any scripture that conflicts with eternal security is declared "not about the security of the believer".


    No debate intended by me. I pointed this out because those who believe in eternal security, seem to have trouble appreciating the conditional security view. As Martin suggested, do a study of what verses your friend will use. It may surprise your that his salvation is just as secure as yours. Many eternal security Christians think that conditional security Christians do not have assurance of their salvation. That is not so.
     
  10. James_Newman

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    Conditional security can not offer any assurance that one will not stop following Christ. Your 'assurance' could only be described as a hope at best.
     
  11. LeBuick

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    The ole "Just because you won't push me doesn't mean I can't jump" defence.

    The problem with this defense is the hands of the saviour, jump if you will. You're still saved...
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    John 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his
    only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth
    in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.


    What ever 'haue euerlasting life' means, is what
    'eternal security' is.
     
  13. LeBuick

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    I like that... I really like how you put that...
     
  14. drfuss

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    As I said in my previous post, most eternal security Christians have trouble appreciating the conditional security view. The above demonstrates it. My salvation is assured because I will continue trusting Christ as my Savior.

    For eternal security believers, if someone stops trusting Christ, many say he wasn't really a Christian, he just thought he was. So how does an eternal security believer know he is not one of those? As I said before, the salvation of conditional security Christians are just as secure as that for eternal security Christians.

    No more debate from me. Just thought I would help dal747 understand conditional security.

    drfuss signing off.
     
  15. James_Newman

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    And you know this because...
    Those people are called Calvinists. Personally I believe that a persons eternal security is not based on works. A believer that is walking carnally is a carnal believer, saved eternally by the blood of Christ, but in danger of punishment at the judgment seat of Christ.
    I don't blame you for not wanting to stick this one out. They tend to get ugly.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Drfuss: //My salvation is assured
    because I will continue trusting Christ as my Savior.//

    I will continue trusting Christ as my Savior
    because my salvation is assured.
     
  17. LeBuick

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    I really hate to do this but I haven't seen Joseph B around lately so here we go.

    Would "continue trusting" be considered a work?
     
  18. Allan

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    Yep! Because if you stop trusting you haven't earned the right to be a child of God.

    NOTE: saved is in the past perfect tense showing a completed act HAS been done. Which takes works out of the equation and keeps your boasting silent.
    It is also in the passive voice which means The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. And in no way indicates the action is continued on nor is it completed by the subject. Interesting how one word can unravil such drivil like conditional salvation.

    We can not save ourselves and by that token if we can not save ourselves we (with great assurance) can not keep ourselves saved since it was an act of God to begin with. Unless of course you are greater than God who saved you.

    I will say it is of note what John stated in I John 2:19:
     
    #18 Allan, Dec 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2006
  19. gerald285

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    Hello dal747,
    there are two that stand oout in my mind. Both are in 1John
    1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    This is very clear. If they leave the faith they were never saved.

    1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    The second one deals with sin. If they profess to be saved and daily practice sin they are a liar.

    1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


    The problem today is that so many in the churches are not really saved and this makes christianity seem to be something it is not. I have listend to several men of God, one being Billy Graham, who say that a min. of 50% of those who attend church on any given Sunday in this country are not really Christians.


     
  20. StraightAndNarrow

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    That's correct (and Biblical).

    Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
    Hbr 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
    Hbr 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
     

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