Eternal Security : Once Saved Always Saved ?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Brother_Joey_Gowdy, Jul 1, 2002.

  1. Brother_Joey_Gowdy

    Brother_Joey_Gowdy
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    Ive posted this on many sites - and many sites have banned me for this - they dont want to hear the truth and simply turn their ears to fables. Once Saved Always Saved is Bible Doctrine

    Ok, here is what the word save means from the 1958 Websters Dictionary:

    to rescue, preserve from danger, evil, etc.;
    to redeem;
    to protect;
    to secure;
    to maintain;
    to keep for future;
    to lay by;
    to hoard;
    to obliviate need of;
    to spare;
    to except;
    to deliver from sin;
    to economize;

    So now that we know the word means - the question must now be this :

    Once redeemed, Always redeemed?

    or

    Once secured, Always secured?

    or

    Once delivered from sin, Always delivered from sin?


    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    1st John 5 : 10 - 13 : King James BIBLE


    Below are some other discussion I have been in concerning Once Saved Always Saved :

    http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=48

    http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=60;start=0

    [ July 01, 2002, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Brother_Joey_Gowdy ]
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    So what's the beef?... OSAS all the way!... Come visit us in the Calvin/Arminian Forum... This is one of our favorite subjects! Never believed it any other way myself and it's the crowning glory of the Primitive Baptist brethren... As the scriptures state... Come And See!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  3. Brother_Joey_Gowdy

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    Unfortunately Ive been to some Baptist churches that originated from the SBC and didnt believe the OSAS

    :eek:
     
  4. Odemus

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    What's the difference between a backslider and an apostate?

    A backslider lives long enough to repent.
     
  5. Brother_Joey_Gowdy

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    LOL!!
    Thats True -

    but Either way -

    deMoNations should not be uplifted as they currently are.

    Stick to the rich red redeeming God devine blood of the lovely Jesus - He alone will lead you thru the straight and the narrow.

    ;)

    [ July 01, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Brother_Joey_Gowdy ]
     
  6. boris99

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    Bro. Joey,

    Allow me to quote from the Baptist Faith and Message (SBC):

    "All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation."

    OSAS is DEFINITELY a belief of most SBC churches (and I definitely believe it myself)... there may be a few that do not believe in OSAS, but of course they are free to do so as autonomous churches.
     
  7. Ruht

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    All beliefs against eternal security are based on legalism. For it is impossible to lose one's salvation if we are saved by grace, which we are.

    Our salvation is based on the work of Jesus Christ, not on our own works. We are not saved by not sinning, but by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore since we are not saved by anything we do or don't do (outside of faith in the blood of Christ), then what we do or don't do cannot possibly cause us to lose our salvation.

    If we were to lose our salvation for sinning, then that would mean that we would have to not sin in order to keep our salvation, and our salvation would then not be by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, but by not sinning.

    Some say that this then gives us a license to sin, claiming that if there is no fear of punishment, then the saved will then go about trying to sin as much as possible.

    However, this would then mean that those who are trying not to sin are only doing so out of fear of going to hell, not because they truly do not want to sin; meaning they are not truly righteous, but rather merely putting on an act.

    But God is not mocked, and God does not honor an act, but only the real thing. This is why God puts his Holy Spirit into man and changes the nature of man from a sinner into a creature of righteousness. We then do good by nature, not by duress in the hope of earning our salvation by trying to "act good."

    Some teach the doctrine of the "free will," claiming that God gave us the "free will" to choose to do right and wrong on a moment by moment basis. However, nowhere in the Bible does God teach such a thing, but rather the opposite. For Paul taught us that before we were saved our will was controlled by the spirit of sin (Romans 7:18), and after we are saved our will is controlled by the Holy Spirit (Philippians 2:13).

    We have a limited free will, but not a total free will, and we are who we are by the nature of the spirit which inhabits our own spirits. This is why God puts his Spirit inside of our spirits when we are saved. He removes the cause of our sin - the spirit of sin - and he then puts his holy Spirit inside of our spirits, in its place. And as we used to sin by nature, even so now we do righteousness by nature; as stated in Romans 7:18&19.

    All beliefs against eternal security are because of the lack of understanding of salvation and the new birth, and the lack of understanding as to the cause of sin. The Bible was written in a way that only through the Holy Spirit are we able to see and understand grace, and it tells us that the spirit of the world is not able to see and understand grace, nor the true interpretations of the Bible; in I Corinthians 2:7-14.

    The sprit of the world tells us that salvation must be earned through works and one's own lifelong effort of trying to "obey God;" the Spirit of God tells us that salvation is totally free, paid for by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and that obedience to God is something done by nature, through the birth of the Holy Spirit, not because we are trying to earn anything or because we are afraid of losing salvation, but because that is the way we naturally are, and what we truly want to do. We will continue to do good even when there is no law or fear of punishment, just as God does good, because we are born of the same Spirit which makes God good, his Holy Spirit.

    God bless.
     
  8. BrianT

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    I do not believe one can loose their salvation simply by sinning. Yet I am not OSAS. I picture it this way: no one can snatch us out of his hand, but he's not holding us so tightly that we can't jump out of his hand on our own. Many verses (and even that quote from the SBC above) say the believer must endure to the end. We must abide with him. What if we stop enduring, what if we stop abiding? John 15:6 says those

    By grace are we saved through faith. But faith can be overthrown (2 Tim 2:18). Rom 11:22 says we must "continue", or else we will be "cut off". The whole concept of "apostasy" is about falling away from the faith. You cannot fall away from something you never had in the first place, thus if OSAS is true, apostasy (on an individual basis) does not exist.

    Am I in the vast minority, here in the Baptist-only section of this board? [​IMG]

    [ July 13, 2002, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    BrianT, you and I are in the minority here on this Baptist section. But you & I agree on most things, I have noticed. [​IMG] However, some would consider us not "true Baptists." :rolleyes: :eek:

    This subject has been beaten to death in many threads, though. (I still have the bruises...) :D :D :D :eek: :eek:
     
  10. Baptist Believer

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    Maybe the reason they are no longer with the SBC is that they *have* rejected "Once saved, always saved."

    Personally, I've never known of an SBC church that denied that doctrine (or a CBF-affiliated or Texas Baptist (BGCT) church)!

    As Boris stated, it has been part of the Baptist Faith and Message and I think that has been one of the least controversial aspects in Baptist Faith and Message history.
     
  11. Baptist Believer

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    But if you are a believer, you will persevere to the end, regardless of your doctrine. :D :D :D I suspect this part of your doctrine will not persevere when you enter the fullness of the Kingdom. (But of course, all of us will have to make some adjustments!)
     
  12. BrianT

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    Hi EagleLives911,

    It is unfortunate that you have bruises because of this, but I encourage you to continue to stand for what you believe to be true! [​IMG]

    Brian
     
  13. BrianT

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    I have heard this before. It is the flip side of "if one doesn't persevere, they weren't saved in the first place". In my opinion, that is just a little too convenient: although it is not taught in scripture (and thus already suspect in my mind), it is impossible to prove it wrong because we can't even test the argument this side of eternity.

    But I'll try: why does scripture encourage us to persevere (endure, stand firm, abide, remain, etc.), if believer has no choice but to persevere in the first place?

    [ July 13, 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]
     
  14. Ruht

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    Yes, I have heard this before, but your reasoning is based on legalism, your misunderstanding as to how a person is saved. For, tell me, how exactly do you claim a person can "jump out of his hand?"

    Many vereses sound to the legalist that salvation is a lifelong, human effort, and that is because God wrote the Bible that way intentionally. For the Jews also, after reading scripture, thought that salvation came by the deeds of the law (Romans 9:30-33), because of the stumblingblock of grace that cannot be discerned except through the Holy Spirit.

    God has hidden grace from those who refuse to have total faith in his Son, and he has hidden it by writing the Bible is such a way that causes those who have faith in works, to further their faith in works. For grace is life, and only those who put their faith in Christ have a right to that life. Only through the Spirit of the author of the Bible can a person discern grace; and God says so in I Corinthians 2:7-14.

    To the natural man, the Bible indeed looks like it is saying that salvation is a lifelong process; but to the Spiritual, grace is discerned; and of course then, eternal security.

    How do you say that the saved "endures?" Remember, we are only saved by faith in the blood of Christ. Therefore the only thing one would have to "endure" in is to continue having faith in the blood of Christ. However, the answer of the mistaken legalist will be that one must continue to "follow Jesus;" meaning going to church, doing good works, obeying his written commandments, etc.; which is salvation by works, not by grace.

    Does it say that salvation can be "overthrown?" One's faith is "overthrown" when one fails to believe in eternal security, for one is stating that what Christ did was not good enough, that man must add to it in order to remain saved. Having one's faith overthrown does not mean having one's salvation overthrown, however.

    Who is "we?" Romans 11:22 is talking about a group, not about an individual, and it does not say that the saved can lose their salvation; rather that is how the legalist interprets it, because he thinks salvation is earned, rather than by grace.

    Legalists interpret scripture into their already pre-conceived opinion on salvation, not upon the sure foundation of grace, and because of this they stumble.

    The word "apostasy" is not even mentioned in the entire Bible, because such a thing does not exist unto the believer.

    God bless.
     
  15. Ruht

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    What scripture? The only way we "persevere" and "endure" is to be covered in the blood of Christ, the same way we were saved in the first place. And the only way we are covered in the blood of Christ is to have faith in that blood. And doubting our salvation is not faith in that blood, but doubt of that blood.

    Those who truly have faith in the blood of Christ have entered into the rest of God; as stated in Hebrews 4:3. But those who doubt the blood of Christ go about trying to establish their own righteousness, and they are therefore not at rest, but trying to physically "endure."

    Faith without works is dead. Therefore I will show you my faith in Christ, not by me trying to work my way into heaven, but in me at rest in the work of Christ. However, the legalist, who does not understand what faith without works means, will show me his non-faith in Christ by his work of trying to work his way into heaven.

    True believers in Christ prove their faith in Christ by their work of not working to obtain eternal life. They are at rest. Believers in works prove their faith in works, not in Christ, by their work of trying to work their way into heaven.

    This is what faith without works means; but the legalist thinks it strengthens his argument, when it actually disproves it. And this because the legalist cannot interpret the Bible properly until he is upon the sure foundation of salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and that alone.

    God bless.
     
  16. BrianT

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    Well, this is the first time I've ever been called a legalist. :D Ernie, are you reading this? :D If anything, I'm usually lumped in with those with "liberal" leanings.

    By consciously deciding to no longer have faith in Christ. By returning the gift.

    Three things: 1. I am not a legalist. 2. I do not believe salvation is a lifelong, human effort. 3. Do you believe God wrote the Bible in a way that is the opposite of what he meant????

    I am not talking about faith in works. I do not believe works save you.

    This is more what I'm talking about. You just said we have to "continue having faith". I'm saying the exact same thing.

    Maybe you don't understand my position. [​IMG] I'm not saying what Christ did was not good enough.

    But earlier you said we must "continue having faith". If faith is overthrown, it is discontinued.

    There are lots of words that are not mentioned in the Bible. But the concept is still there.
     
  17. BrianT

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    Do you really want me to list them all? It will take me a while to copy them all over.

    I agree. But just because you have true faith in the blood at one point of your life does not mean you will have the same faith at every point in your life. It is possible to have faith at one point, and doubt or even reject later.

    The rest of your comments I basically covered already.

    Brian
     
  18. Helen

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    A couple of points:

    an apostate not only walks away from the faith itself; he speaks against it.
    a backslider has not denied the faith, he simply isn't walking it. The Lord will discipline him.

    Can a person walk away from being born again in Christ? Can a person crawl back again into his mother's womb, and not only that, retreat back into being an unfertilized egg? When you are born again you are dead to sin. It no longer has power over you. Instead of having a heart that tends toward evil all the time (Genesis 8:21), you have a new heart from God which is longing for Him and desires to obey Him. A heart like this cannot walk away from God.

    Might want to mention as well that Philippians 1:6 states He will complete the good thing He has started in us; Romans 8:28-30 indicates that those who love the Lord are predestined to be conformed to His image; and, finally, no sheep can take care of itself. If one wanders, the Good Shepherd will go out after it. In other words, you can try to wander away, but if you belong to Him, He brings you back.

    What we are saved from is ourselves. Once we are saved from that, our selves cannot lead us away again! We can stumble, we can fall, but we are still His and He is still caring for us.

    By the way, is it REALLY 'perseverence of the saints'? Or is it actually perseverence of Christ. HE's the one who goes out after the strays! HE's the one who will finish the work started. HE's the one who disciplines us. The only reason any saint can keep going at all is because of strength, wisdom, and every other quality coming from the Lord by His grace!

    On our own, we die.
     
  19. BrianT

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    Hi Helen,

    I understand and appreciate what you are saying. But the reason this debate has gone on for so many centuries is because both positions can be defended scripturally. [​IMG] Trust me, I want to be OSAS, that would be great! But *so many* passages encourage me to "endure", "stand firm", etc. If OSAS is true (at least how I understand it), those verses are as valuable as someone telling me "Oh, by the way, don't forget to breath!" [​IMG]

    No. But one that is married can commit adultery, divorce their mate and marry another. We cannot make time go backwards, but we can change the future. If I can do this physically, why can't I do this spiritually? Indeed, this exact analogy is used in scripture.

    Helen, what is your take on Matt 24:45-51? The text clearly says that there is a servant/Lord relationship in the beginning, even during the later evil actions and rejection of his Lord's words. But where does he ultimately end up?

    Brian
     
  20. Ruht

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    Since every theology I have ever encountered against eternal security is based on legalism, as that can be the only way to disagree with eternal security, then I prefer to use that word, rather than type out each time "people who don't believe in eternal security."

    "For, tell me, how exactly do you claim a person can "jump out of his hand?"

    What constitutes to you as not having faith in Christ anymore? And how can a person born of Christ, who has the Holy Spirit living inside of him/her, no longer believe in someone who is living inside of him and speaking to him 24/7?

    Christ said that his sheep will follow no other voice (John 10:5), so how then can they no longer follow the voice of Christ, who lives within them?

    "Many verses sound to the legalist that salvation is a lifelong, human effort; and that is because God wrote the Bible that way intentionally."

    1) You are indeed a legalist (practising legalism) if you do not believe in eternal security; whether you understand that or not.

    2) If you believe that one can lose their salvation, then at what time do you feel a person is saved to the point that they can no longer lose their salvation. If it is when one is in heaven, then you do indeed believe that salvation is a lifelong (upon the earth) continual process.

    3) God wrote the Bible in such a way that the natural man cannot properly interpret it. If you think that natural man can, then interpret my following words:

    "The cat is green"

    Tell me what I mean by that, if you think of yourself qualified to be able to properly interpret the words of another, without making a mistake. Use all the exegesis that you can muster, and tell me what I mean by that.

    But before you do, here's a hint: The word "cat" does not stand for a house cat, and the word "green" does not mean that the house cat has green fur. Also, the word "cat" does not stand for a lion, and the word "green" does not mean that the lion is sick. Also, the word "cat" does not stand for a jazz musician, and the word "green" does not mean that the jazz musician is new in the band, etc.

    Therefore you are now aware that what I have written can only be properly interpreted by me, and that you can only know for sure the proper interpretation, through me. You can guess, suppose and assume, but unless I reveal to you what I have written, you can never know for sure, and there is a good chance your interpretation will be in error.

    Now, seeing this example, then please read the following:

    "But as it is written, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." - I Corinthians 2:9-11

    Here we see the Bible bearing witness as to what I wrote, that only I know what it is by what I have written. And likewise it says it is the same with what God has written.

    Then the Bible goes on to tell us who then has the proper interpretation of scripture, since there can be so many different interpretations:

    "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are FREELY given to us of God." - I Corinthians 2:12

    The word "freely" in this verse is the key as to who is interpreting the Bible correctly, and who isn't. For it is saying that those who interpret grace, totally free salvation, are doing so through the Spirit of God. The spirit of the world, on the other hand, the other spirit mentioned in this verse, interprets the opposite of grace, which is works; when the Bible is read.

    "he has hidden it by writing the Bible is such a way that causes those who have faith in works"

    You have to, if you believe that one can lose their salvation. For you believe that one has to "endure" for a length of time in order to be saved, which means works; whether you understand that or not.

    "Remember, we are only saved by faith in the blood of Christ. Therefore the only thing one would have to "endure" in is to continue having faith in the blood of Christ."

    No, I was speaking in the hypothetical, as an example if what you said was true, not that it is. For as I said before, we are born of the Holy Spirit when we are saved, and it is impossible for God to deny himself. Therefore it is impossible for us to deny God, if we are born of him.

    "One's faith is "overthrown" when one fails to believe in eternal security, for one is stating that what Christ did was not good enough, that man must add to it in order to remain saved."

    OK, then if it is good enough, are we then saved, or on probation? When do you claim that we are truly, once and for all, saved? If it is good enough to save us, then we are saved, not on probation.

    You can't have it both ways.

    "Having one's faith overthrown does not mean having one's salvation overthrown, however."

    No, I did not say that, I was stating that if what you said were possible, not that it is possible.

    "The word "apostasy" is not even mentioned in the entire Bible, because such a thing does not exist unto the believer."

    The concept is not there, rather you only think it is there. And that because you are misinterpreting scripture.

    "What scripture?"

    Well, you make a generalized statement of what you think is in the Bible; and because such a thing is not in the Bible, but is actually a result of your misinterpretations of the Bible, I would need to know what scriptures you are referring to, in order to precisely comment on them.

    "And the only way we are covered in the blood of Christ is to have faith in that blood. And doubting our salvation is not faith in that blood, but doubt of that blood."

    How, if the Holy Spirit enters into the hearts of all believers at the time of their salvation, where he remains?

    Let me ask you something: If Adam and Eve had eaten from the fruit of the tree of life, would they have been able to undo what they did, later? Were they able to undo what they did in regard to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

    Once someone accepts Christ, he receives salvation and eternal life. And once one has eternal life, they can never undo it; just as if one were to have eternal damnation, they also could never undo that, either. And one HAS eternal life the moment they accept Christ; as stated in John 5:24; John 6:47 and John 6:54.

    God bless.
     

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