Eternal Security or Perseverance of the Saints

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Baptistas, Aug 20, 2004.

  1. Baptistas

    Baptistas
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  2. Squire Robertsson

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    Personally, I hold to the security of the believer in Christ.
     
  3. npetreley

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    His arguments have more holes in them than the Albert Hall.
     
  4. Kiffin

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    I hold to the Calvinist view of Perseverance of the Saints but not the OSAS view of Eternal Security. (They are often confused as the same but they are not!)
     
  5. BobRyan

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    4 Point Calvinists have the "ONLY" consitent model for OSAS and that is BECAUSE they give up on perseverence of the saints.

    I believe in a form of "perseverence of the saints" -- in that I believe that if you trace a timeline of a saint from the point of glorification backward - you will come to the point of conversion and find that they "persevered" the entire way to the 2nd coming.

    However - I argue that they "could" have been saved a few times even BEFORE that final segment of their life.

    The assurance of salvation in scripture is found in Romans 8:16 and it is only on that basis that you can really have it.

    Here is a challenge for you -- Arminians "can know that they are saved today but can not know today that they WILL still be saved 10 years from now. 5 Pt Calvinists can't even know that".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    Bob Ryan,

    The five points of Calvinism are very simple, but then you get into deeper concepts that force these people into horrendous error.

    Their predeterminism as to salvation leads to the humanistic and secular concept of fate. Here is a god who for some hidden, unknown reason damns the majority to Hell.

    Their more difficult idea to swallow is that this god can send the unborn and children under the age of accountability to Hell, via the leverage of His own will and divine purposes.

    In that they do not believe in free will [Revelation 22:17f, this quasi-Biblical theology creates their god as the author of sin. Adam had no choice; therefore, the Lord made them submit to temptation. The highest of angels had no choice; so the Lord tilted the scales and caused them to turn into the Devil and his demons.

    Limited atonement brings about the demise of the authority of His blood, so allegedly, Jesus only died for the few, [Matthew 7:14] when in fact Christ died for all sinners. [John 5:24; I Timothy 2:6; I John 2:2 & Revelation 22:17] This view, if you will, takes the 'punch' out of the reconciliation of Christ toward all the lost.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    Ray Berrian, you are a liar. You accuse Calvinists of having a God who sends the majority to hell, when that is exactly what your position is. Here is a quote from one of the threads in which you posted this:

    So, now, who condemns more people to hell ?
    Everytime you come up with this kind of argument, I will call you a liar to your face.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    Furthermore, 'dr' Berrian said:

    First question: where in the Bible does it even imply about the existence of an age of accountability ?

    Second question: Did Calvinists on this board repeatedly asked you to tell them, how in the world will babies, those who die in infancy,and those who die in the womb, as well as those who do not have the mental capacity to understand, how are they going to heaven if you, 'Dr' Berrian, will require, along with your Arminian friends, that they first hear the gospel and accept Christ as savior ?

    You have conveniently left these questions clearly answered with Scripture, and yet you accuse the Calvinists of damning these babies and mentally incompetent to hell ?
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    On the eternal security of the Saints, among other things, this is what the Bible says:

     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    Among the majority of Primitive Baptists we hold that the saint, rather than persevering, is preserved in Christ (Jude 1:1).

    Unfortunately Baptistas, the author of the book you find is, to my view, ignorant of the nature of his salvation, if he has it in the first place.
     
  11. billwald

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    Personally, I hold to the security of the believer in Christ.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Right. Until he stops believing.

    "Believe" has become a meaningless word.
     
  12. billwald

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    "Proportionately, I believe more people will be in Hell than will enter Heaven."

    As an aside, not a logical position for anyone who thinks that all fetuses are "people." Over half of all conceptions are spontaneously aborted (by God?). Would God send them to Hell?
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Matt 7 says clearly that the MANY go to hell and the FEW go to heaven. There is no way to avoid this - and calling Ray Berrian a "liar" does not solve this problem for Calvinists.

    This is just stating the obvious.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    So in other words, you agree with Ray Berrian that the majority of souls that existed in all ages will go to hell, that includes babies and those who are mentally incompetent, on the basis of babies' and those mentally incompetent to do a positive, assenting action like accepting Christ which requires both understanding as well as emotion.

    Therefore, if you and your brother Ray Berrian have a problem with Calvinists, it follows that it is because Calvinists take the opposite view, which is that more souls will be heaven bound than hell bound because God is absolutely merciful, Christ is the One who does the action of atoning, obedience, and believing for those whom He had chosen to salvation (which gives God the absolute privilege of regenerating babies in the womb and the mentally incompetent if He so desires, since no action is required on their part), and by its fallen instinct, fallen man knows he has no glory or credit whatsoever for salvation since this is entirely dependent upon God's character of mercy and grace.
    So, why shouldn't Ray Berrian be a liar and a bearer of false witness if he accuses those at the other end of the spectrum of a heresy which he unabashedly and openly espouses ?
     
  15. Ian Major

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    Bob Ryan said
    Here is a challenge for you -- Arminians "can know that they are saved today but can not know today that they WILL still be saved 10 years from now. 5 Pt Calvinists can't even know that".

    I'm a 5 Pt Calvinist. I DO know I will be saved 10 million years from now, Rom.8: 38For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.; Rom.14: 4Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

    Arminians have their will as greater than all these, able to separate the believer from Christ. I'm glad I have been delivered from such a dangerous master.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Ian,

    I was stating the above based on the known and objective "principles TAUGHT" in those different models. I realize that on a personnal and subjective basis "individuals" will make claims that go beyond the model they hold to.

    But it does not change the fact (obvious to all) that IF you should "NOT continue to persevere 10 years from now" then all your claimed "assurance" posted today will be considered "retro-deleted" by your fellow 5-pt Calvinists as they will claim "well I guess Ian never was saved in the first place" - just as you retro-delete THEIRS today when you see one of them fail to persevere.

    4 Pt Calvinists see this, your fellow 5 pointers will "practice it" and Arminians all see this point as well.

    I am simply stating the obvious.

    The point remains.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Thien you are in good company Because Christ Himself says that it is only the FEW that will be found to have taken the narrow road while the MANY will be found to have taken the wide road to hell (see Matt 7).

    You are on solid ground.

    However the issue of infants is different. I Matt 7 it is clearly the CHOICES and "few there are that FIND IT" -- in that context then the contrast of "MANY vs FEW" is when we consider the fate of thinking "knowing" humans.

    The fact that Christ saves infants is obviously not in the context of what He is addressing in MAtt 7.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Ray Berrian

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    Ian,

    I agree with you that those who are truly saved will be saved 10,000 years from now a even to eternity. I did not always believe this.

    Ian said, quote: 'Arminians have their will as greater than all these, able to separate the believer from Christ. I'm glad I have been delivered from such a dangerous master.

    Ray is saying, quote: 'Arminians and Calvinists and all sinners always have their 'will' to master.
    Calvinists and Arminians, if they are all Christians can still backslide but because of the intercession of Christ, He keeps us forever. [Hebrews 7:25]
     
  19. Ian Major

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    Bob Ryan said
    I was stating the above based on the known and objective "principles TAUGHT" in those different models. I realize that on a personnal and subjective basis "individuals" will make claims that go beyond the model they hold to.

    You misunderstand Calvinism, then.

    But it does not change the fact (obvious to all) that IF you should "NOT continue to persevere 10 years from now" then all your claimed "assurance" posted today will be considered "retro-deleted" by your fellow 5-pt Calvinists as they will claim "well I guess Ian never was saved in the first place" - just as you retro-delete THEIRS today when you see one of them fail to persevere.

    Yes, we do say of those who fall away that they were never saved in the first place, like Judas. But what has that to do with the assurance of the true believer? The true believer can know he is saved. The false believer may deceive himself into thinking he's saved - but he knows deep down. He is afraid to examine himself for the marks of grace. He excuses his ungodliness.

    From my experience, those who have fallen away had a secret life behind the godly facade. Long-standing sexual immorality, greed, ambition, etc. They eventually displayed what they always were inside. They did not stop being godly people, they just dropped the pretence. Like Judas.

    The true believer is not afraid to examine himself.

    The true believer is not afraid of the Lord's examination. He says, Ps.139:23Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; 24And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

    It is not the case that the true believer may find himself not to be so. A false believer may well discover this, and by God's grace repent of it. Many have. But the sincere beleiver, the one whose heart is open to God, will not find himself in that position. God does not mock men who truly seek Him. This is the assurance we have, that if we sincerely come to Him, He shall receive us.

    So no Christian, especially not a Calvinist, should live in doubt of his conversion. If we have doubts, we have a God to whom we can go to receive assurance.

    If the believer is living carnally, then he has no right to assurance. It does not mean he is lost, just that he has no grounds to be sure he's not. But those who are walking after Christ, they have every right to know they are saved forever.


    I know godly Christians, Calvinists among them, have troubled themselves by second-guessing God instead of taking Him at His word. He gives us His promise of acceptance, then He gives us tests to assure ourselves by. We can use these and call on His Spirit to confirm with our spirit that we are His. We need no more.

    In Him

    Ian

    Ian
     
  20. Ian Major

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    Ray Berrian said
    Ray is saying, quote: 'Arminians and Calvinists and all sinners always have their 'will' to master.

    Indeed, Ray. But Calvinists know that 'sin shall NOT have dominion over you'. The war may have its losing battles, but the final outcome is already settled. It is not possible that we shall finally be overcome.

    Calvinists and Arminians, if they are all Christians can still backslide but because of the intercession of Christ, He keeps us forever. [Hebrews 7:25]

    Amen. [​IMG]

    In Him

    Ian
     

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