Eternal Security or Perseverance of the Saints

Ian,

I agree with your last post completely. Hey, the Holy Spirit is still working in our hearts. That is something to celebrate!

The bottom line is that those who think or believe you can fall from grace, circumvent Romans 5:20. If we sin as Christians His grace superabounds even while wavering in the faith of Jesus.

Just because we are saved eternally shall we continue to sin. God speaking through the Apostle Paul says, 'God forbid!!' [Romans 6:2]

Berrian, Th.D.

 

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can the faith save him?

James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:19 If we keep on confessing our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who has rejected Moses law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

Dear Ray, Bob and you other brethren.

I'm sorry I must break off for a while. May our Heavenly Father guide you all by His Spirit into more and more truth. I hope to meet up with you in the not too distant future.

In Him

Ian

 

Ian Major,

I liked all of your post, but this was the best.

'If the believer is living carnally, then he has no right to assurance. It does not mean he is lost, just that he has no grounds to be sure he's not. But those who are walking after Christ, they have every right to know they are saved forever'

This should be preached in all Christian Churches, so that believers do not think they can sin against His precious grace. Of course, Arminian churches would not preach this because of their theological view.

I would preach paragraph number two, above, but then I believe in the full security of the Christian {believer}. In fact, on occasion I have preached this concept.

Important information from you. Thanks!

 

Ian,

I know you are gone now so you may never get this response. But I came back to this thread late and have just gotten this... so here goes.

Bob said

Which means that all your "assurance" that you claim to have today will be found to be "no assurance at all" by your fellow 5-pointers in that 10-years-from-now future.

You simply have to take by faith - that 10 years from now you WON't decide to fail to persevere so that today's assurance really is REAL assurance.

And that is a problem.

As I said - the 4 pointers have a much better case for assurance AND OSAS combined.

The best 5 pointers can get to "based on the model" is OSAS without assurance.

This is not necessarily true in the case of the lost person. AS MAtt 7 points out - there will be supposedly-saved lost people self-deceived right up to the very end.

So simply saing "I FEEL good about myself being in" is not sufficient to KNOW that in fact you are really lost.

Your entire hope of assurance is based on knowing yourself so fully that you can take all your sins and sinning and say "yes but this it not really really bad yet" and claiming that the REAL lost person was saying to THEMSELVES "yes but MY sinning IS really really bad compared to Ian's".

No such luck.

The problem is that you can't make "stop-sinning" as your "basis for assurance" so then you are in the game of comparing your sinning with that view that you imagine the lost-Christian church member having when THEY sin and then compare their sinning to how your view yours.

Again - a problem.

Both the SAVED (2Cor 13:5) and the UNSAVED (Matt 7) "examine themselves" and find themselves to be saved by grace. But the unsaved "are self-deceived" in thinking that. Genuinely deceived.

Well - here we have another case where a Calvinist makes a good point!

Only this time you really ARE right!

Romans 8:16 it is GOD who must CONFIRM to you that you are saved on an individual "transaction" basis of Rom 8:16.

Only the interactive - experience with the outside observer God who evaluates "correctly" can really "give assurance" bearing WITNESS with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God.

However - back to the problem

The Arminian will TRUST that external witness from God and BELIEVE that we are saved. But then later 10 years later when we fall away from perseverence we will say that THEN we are lost - we will not come back to TODAY and DELETE the witness of God.

5 point Calvinists will.

AND THAT is what casts doubt on their ability EVEN TODAY to experience that Rom 8:6 external witness and STILL really - really trust it.

See?

This simply ignores the problem embedded in Calvinism that SAYS that as you go to God and get assurance after assurance - but then 10 years from now fail to persevere - THEN we will delete all your experiences with God that preceeded that failure.

Such a thing hanging over the 5 pointer's head has got to be 'distracting' at the least. I suspect they simply choose to IGNORE it as much as possible.

Sorta like they ignore calvinism when doing evangelism.

IN Christ,

Bob