Eternal Security the Acid test

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Feb 11, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    This is possibly the strongest verse in the Bible for the doctrine of eternal security.

    A. "The Father's will" in context does not refer to the REVEALED WILL of God but as verse 37 demonstrates it refers to the DETERMINATE WILL of God because every single one the Father gives does in fact come to Christ, whereas, the REVEALED WILL of God brings no one to Christ.

    B. "Of All" denies that any given by the Father will be lost "I shall lose nothing".

    C. "but raise IT (him - third person singular) up again at the last day" does not refer to a general resurrection because all men will be raised up again at the last day. This is the promise that each and every one that comes to Chrsit will be raised up to the resurrection of eternal life as the very next verse demands as well (v. 40) as it ends with the very same promise.

    However, my point is that the question "Do you believe a true born again child of God can lose their salvation" is the acid test that determines whether a person/denomination/church actually embraces the doctrine of justification by works or the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    It is the acid test whether they are using Biblical language but denying the Biblical meaning of that langauge or they are using Biblical langauge according to its Biblical meaning.

    It is the acid test whether they actually believe that Jesus Christ ALONE satisfied the complete demands of the Law in the place of the believer or he did so conditionally based upon the believer continuing in good works.

    It is the acid test whether or not they beleive that Jesus Christ SATIFIED FULLY THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD against sin for true born again believers or that they really beleive true believers must stand before God in judgment to ultimately be vindicated by their own works for entrance into heaven.

    It is the acid test because those who deny eternal security cannot believe or say what Jesus said in John 6:39 without changing the meaning of the words He used and thus proves they do not believe we are justified by grace alone thorugh faith alone in Christ alone without works no matter how much they assert they do - because they reject the Biblical meaning of those Biblical terms.

    All who reject the doctrine of eternal security "preach another gospel" regardless of their denial.

    Until you can demonstrate by this context that I am misinterpreting the words of Christ, I will not jump and run to your PROOF TEXT from a different context. Once we have established the contextual meaning here, then I would be more than happy to jump to your PROOF TEXT and demonstrate from its context you have jerked it out of context.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Feb 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2012
  2. targus

    targus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,459
    Likes Received:
    0
    No arrogance there... :rolleyes:

    Are you afraid to test Scripture against Scripture?

    Why is your PROOF TEXT better than any other PROOF TEXT?
     
  3. Moriah

    Moriah
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,540
    Likes Received:
    0
    First, I want to say that a person can be sure of their security in salvation. I am sure of my salvation, and it is a great thing to be sure. However, the Bible warns us about falling away and drawing back, if no one can lose their salvation, then there would be no warning. There are scriptures that tell us about those who lost their salvation.
    That scripture is about Jesus not losing any body; however, a person can willfully leave.
    The person must do things too, we are servants of the Lord!
    Do you not know servants are supposed to do things?
    There are works of the law, and then there are deeds, they are not the same thing. We do not have to do the works of the law anymore, i.e. circumcision and observance of special days; however, we have Jesus’ teachings we must do.
    Our own works? What is that? We have to have Jesus' teachings and do them. If your brother needs clothes and is hungry, do you feed him or send him away? Jesus tells us what to do, if we do not do them, we are sinning. If there is someone who you need to forgive, do you forgive? There are so many things we must do, are you saying we do not really have to do them?
    That is not true. I have a lot of scriptures to share with you about this.
     
  4. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    First, a few comments without going to the scripture exactly...

    "I dont think it is something you wake up one day and do, or that God just says that is it...I am done with you." What a heartbreaking way to live....never knowing if you have lost your salvation or not, wondering which sin it is that may send you over the edge back into lostness of unbelief, would God let me know when He was done with me....Where is the rest, where is the joy, where is the peace? When would you know that you had satisfied the requirements to keep your salvation? What kind of hope is that? Is it hope at all? How can that kind of hope be an anchor for my soul? I do not see anywhere in the Word that God reveals Him as having this kind of character.

    God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him; He predestined us to be conformed to the image of His son; He put His Holy Spirit in us to cause us to walk in His ways; He gave us to Christ, Who said He came to seek and to save that which was lost, that His sheep know His voice and will not follow another; Jesus said He did not lose any except the son of perdition and that in order to fulfill scripture.

    Warning: “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Mark 13:13). Promise: “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

    Heb 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
    Luke 22:32 -- But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


    Yes, there are warnings, but there are also the promises that He is the One who will keep us; He is the Guardian of our soul; we are protected by His power until the day of redemption...because we believed (received the word implanted); some did not believe (receive the word implanted) but let the word bounce off the fallow ground of their hearts, others heard the word and emotionally responded allowing the seed to rest on the rocky soil of their hearts but only considered it temporarily because when the emotions changed due to affliction or persecution they were chose not to receive it implanted, others considered the word intellectually for a while but in the face of the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of wealth intellectualized it away not receiving it implanted...and thus this group never were among the truly saved. Peter exhorts us to make certain of His calling us in 2 Peter 1 after he has given us the evidence we need to examine ourselves by. Paul exhorts us in 2 Cor 13:5 - "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you -- unless indeed you fail the test?"


    1 Cor 15:1-2
    Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (eike - without purpose, inconsiderately, groundlessly, without cause, to no purpose --- Just like the commandment to not take the name of God in vain. I don't believe it means not to use his name as a swear word but rather to not take His name upon us, identifying Him as our God, without it having any effect on us or our lives.)

    I am especially struck by a theme I see coursing all through the New Testament. Jesus told the parable about the sower, the seed, the soil, and the hearer. He talked about two trees. He said the tree would be known by its fruit and to make it either good or bad. Bad cannot produce good fruit and vice versa.
     
  5. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    James 1:21-22
    21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
    22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
    1 John 3:2-9
    2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
    3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
    4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
    5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
    6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins (continuously) has seen Him or knows Him.
    7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
    8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
    9 No one who is born of God practices sin (verb tense is continuous), because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin (continuously), because he is born of God.


    1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins (verb tense signifies continuously); but He who was born of God (Jesus) keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

    2 Cor 5:17-21
    17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
    21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (ALL of our righteousness is as filthy rags - Isa. 64:6
    Rom. 10: 8-10
    8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
    9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
     
  6. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    I have almost 4 more pages of notes on the issue of eternal security. The more I study the more of God's sovereign grace I see in Scripture.

    That said, I agree with John Piper the eternal security is not the ideal title for this doctrine. Preservation of the Saints is far more biblical.
     
  7. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    The OP has used faulty reasoning to try to establish his Calvinist -- that is, unbiblical -- doctrine of eternal security.

    Of course all who have been given to Jesus will be raised up at the last day. And those who have been given to Jesus are those who persevere to the end -- not predestined to persevere, but who choose to persevere. Those who fall away are ones who are not given to Jesus. Simple, isn't it? And you don't have to resort to a fatalistic determinism which darkly clouds the character of God.

    Freedom is inherent in God's character; it is inextricably bound together with love. God could not perfectly love his sentient creation without bestowing freedom on them; he could not bestow freedom on them without perfectly loving them. We are free to accept or reject God's loving provision and offer of grace, and we continue to have that freedom if we do accept His grace. God does not then take away our free will, that most precious gift bestowed upon us because of Who God is.
     
  8. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gal 2:20-3:5
    20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
    21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."


    Phil 2:12-13
    12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
    13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Couldn't find anyplace where He said He would stop working in us.)

    On the contrary He says: Rom 8:28-30
    28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
    29 For those whom He foreknew (Eph. 1:4), He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
    30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.



    Rom 14:4
    4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

    1 Peter 5:10
    10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
    1 Cor 1:4-8
    4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,
    5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,
    6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
    7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ


    Jude 24, 25
    24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
    25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
     
  9. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    2 Cor 2:14
    14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place.



    John 6:27
    27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." Labor = work John 6:28-29 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

    1 Cor 3:9-15
    9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
    10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
    11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
    13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
    14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

    Galatians 3:1-5
    1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
    2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
    3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
    4 Did you suffer so many things in vain -- if indeed it was in vain?
    5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
     
  10. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    Arminianism and the teachings of Wesley are the teachings of the flesh and the gospel of self. They deny the sovereignty and grace of God. They make God to be subject to the wills of men, and therefore only a god and not the God of the Bible.
     
  11. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is baloney, a mischaracterization, and a total untruth. It is Calvin who recreated god in his image; Calvin's god is a fatalistic demiurge, not the God of love and freedom Whom Jesus was the perfect image of.

    BTW, I don't consider myself an Arminian, but it is much less objectionable than Calvinistic fatalistic determinism.
     
    #11 Michael Wrenn, Feb 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2012
  12. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    From the OP:
    "However, my point is that the question "Do you believe a true born again child of God can lose their salvation" is the acid test that determines whether a person/denomination/church actually embraces the doctrine of justification by works or the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    It is the acid test whether they are using Biblical language but denying the Biblical meaning of that langauge or they are using Biblical langauge according to its Biblical meaning.

    It is the acid test whether they actually believe that Jesus Christ ALONE satisfied the complete demands of the Law in the place of the believer or he did so conditionally based upon the believer continuing in good works.

    It is the acid test whether or not they beleive that Jesus Christ SATIFIED FULLY THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD against sin for true born again believers or that they really beleive true believers must stand before God in judgment to ultimately be vindicated by their own works for entrance into heaven.

    It is the acid test because those who deny eternal security cannot believe or say what Jesus said in John 6:39 without changing the meaning of the words He used and thus proves they do not believe we are justified by grace alone thorugh faith alone in Christ alone without works no matter how much they assert they do - because they reject the Biblical meaning of those Biblical terms.

    All who reject the doctrine of eternal security "preach another gospel" regardless of their denial.

    Not including the Roman Catholic Church, most Arminians do not believe they can lose their salvation: however most Arminians do believe a Christian can forfeit his salvation."

    Your obviously don't understand what most Arminians believe. Not including the Roman Catholic Church (which I don't consider Arminian since they believe some works are involved for salvation), most Arminians do not believe a Christain can lose his salvation; most Arminians do believe a Christian can forfeit his salvation.

    I have not found one scripture that establishes eternal security as a sound doctrine. It would have to explicity say "A Christian can not (or will not) forfeit (or lose) his salvation". The scriptures eternal security believers present are only their interpretations of what those scriptures mean.
     
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why would a Christian forfeit his salvation? Why would he prefer to go to hell?

    I'm asking seriously, not trying to debate.
     
  14. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    I gave up debating about eternal security a long time ago. It is a waste of time.

    As to your question, a Christian can be converted to the Muslim religion or some other religion. Some teenage Christians go off to a secular college and become convinced by their professors, that there is no God or that all religions provide a path to God if there is a God. By stopping trusting Christ, they forfeit their salvation.

    I know, the ES position is that they were not True Christians in the first place or they would have stayed true.
     
    #14 drfuss, Feb 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2012
  15. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    You know it's not just the ES position, it's the Biblical position that they weren't true if a person leaves the faith.

    In addition you're using subjective experiences (turning muslim, college) to prove a doctrine, that is, that people lose their salvation. Thus it is not based upon Scripture, but opinion.
     
  16. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did not say they lose their salvation; I said that they forfeit their salvation. You don't seem to know the difference between the two main Arminian beliefs.

    My last post for today, since I need to get ready to teach my Bible Study Class tomorrow.
     
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's the same bottom line. Forfeit/lose...both false doctrines, and your doctrine is based upon pure subjectivity.
     
  18. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    I am sorry you object to my explanation. I graduated from one of their colleges. I know whet they teach well. I am also sorry you object to a biblical view of God as He describes Himself in the Bible.
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    So far, not one of you has attempted to present any kind of opposing exegetical response to this text or to my expository remarks.

    Are there any takers?
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    My proof text was John 6:39, however, I am not afraid to deal with it in its immedediate context. If I simply play musical chairs we go nowhere but around and around.

    So, let's do some honest exegesis of this proof text in its immediate context before jumping to another tune.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...