Featured Eternal Security the Acid test

The Jews who did not love and obey God BEFORE Jesus came, those Jews were hardened, they were hardened so that they cannot see and believe in Jesus. Jesus came first for the lost sheep of Israel, those are the ones who loved God before Jesus came.

God hardened the rest of the Jews; He gave them over to disobedience, along with the Gentiles, so that He can have mercy on all.

Romans 11:2 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The Jews who were hardened and cut off can be grafted back in, if they do not persist in unbelief.

Romans 11:30-32 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[a] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

This is when God gave His people to Jesus, they were God’s first before Jesus came to earth, then God gave them to Jesus when he had his ministry on earth. Now all must come to Jesus first before coming to God.

Are you saying that the gospel does not come to people, but that people come to the gospel? The Bible says, “ And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" See Romans 10:15, and other scriptures tells us that the gospel is to be preached to all. Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. You see how not accepting the truth about God giving those who already belonged to Him to Jesus can give you mixed up beliefs in other areas.

With your beliefs, all people who will be saved should be saved when they have heard about Jesus the first time.
There are people who are not saved until later in life. If they are already chosen and saved before they believe, then why were they not saved the first time they heard of Jesus?
You see how your beliefs are full of error.
God chooses us by the condition of our heart. God knows our hearts. God gives us His Spirit when He accepts us (Acts 15:7-8). If all are only totally depraved, then what does it matter what is in our hearts? In addition, the Bible tells us what we have to do for God to save us. You can be saved if you do what He says...believe and confess...call on the name of the Lord.

 

Some people like to proof text and beat people over the head with the Bible in an effort to establish some doctrine as the only correct one. Problem with that is, almost any proof text for a doctrine can be met with another proof text that contradicts the pet doctrine.

I don't like to proof text, but just to demonstrate my point: The entire chapter of Hebrews 6 is a very good refutation of the OSAS doctrine.

As also James 2:24 refutes the "faith alone" doctrine: "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

When confronted with situations such as this, the person who disbelieves the verses that refute his pet doctrine begins to wiggle and squirm like a worm in hot ashes, resorting to all types of contortions and rationalizations, trying to explain away the contradictions because to accept the plain words of scripture in these cases would unravel his theological system -- although for verses which he thinks support his system, he demands that they be taken as literally given. He is thus caught in a contradiction from which he cannot extricate himself, and so is left hanging and flapping in the wind.

Luther wanted to exclude the Book of James from the canon because it contradicted his foundational doctrine; many would like to expunge from the Bible those verses which gore their favorite doctrines.

Based on the above, there is support for the Catholic doctrine of justification, and if we took some verses on baptism literally and just as written, the Churches of Christ have basis for their belief.

So, he who proof texteth should be careful, lest he get stucketh by the sword of another's proof text.

 

The author of the OP was aware of this when he started the thread with a proof text and a proclaimation that no other text was allowed to be brought into the discussion.

Given those conditions, I use the word "discussion" tongue in cheek.

 

Yes; quite so.

 

John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

I dealt with his proof text head on in post #48, and where was the response from Biblicist? Here it is again.

HP: Because something is the 'will of God' does not necessitate its coming to pass. For instance, it is Gods will, according to Scripture, that NONE should perish, and that ALL would have eternal life..... but all will not come to repentance even when it is God's will.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



Jesus said in yet another place that He indeed HAD lost one in particular, Judas.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So Biblicist tries once again to rip a proof text out of the context of God's will, and tries in vain to make it walk on all four legs in support of a context he manufactures by his own imagination. The notion of OSAS is not supported by this Scripture or any other.


And just to think that Biblicist feels the verse in the OP was one of the strongest verses in support of OSAS.

 

This is an important fact that you brought up. This shows so beautifully, how much God wants us to come to Him on our own.

Consider also that Jesus prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail him, even though Jesus knew it would. We know from the scriptures that Peter’s faith DID fail him, when he denied Jesus three times.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

Consider also that God desires that the wicked turn from their wickedness and be saved. We know that all the wicked do not turn, even though it is what God desires.
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

 

Did the Death of jesus actually pay for the sins of all peoples, or just was payment towards God on behalf of His own peoples?

 

Jesus paid for the sins of all people, but we have to believe and obey to get access to this reconciliation and salvation.

Romans 5:12 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

 

Nonsense is what you speak.

I have already shown you that you do not understand John 6:39. When Jesus was on earth, HE WAS GIVEN THOSE WHO WENT TO GOD FIRST, BUT NOW, EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO GO TO GOD, THEY MUST GO THROUGH JESUS FIRST.

 

Shall not come into condemnation !

If one could be Truly saved, a Believer in Christ, and then somehow be lost and condemned for sin, Then Jesus lied his tail off here Jn 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

And Jesus ain't no liar....good post...:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

You are taking Scripture out of context here.
Paul is writing to Jewish Christians (hence the title of the book--Hebrews). Many of them were thinking of returning to Judaism. Throughout the book he contrasts Judaism to Christianity. This was a conjecture. IF they should go back to Judaism. They wouldn't, but Paul was putting forth a "what if you would go back to the Temple worship" scenario, which happened to be tempting to them at that time. In application, is it tempting for you to go back to the Temple (non-existent) to worship??

It was a reassurance. They would never fall. They would continue in these things. That is what a Christian does. This verse is an evidence of eternal security. They were not able to fall, for the things that they continued in were evidence that they were saved. Peter was reassuring them not only of their salvation, but the security they had in Christ. They all continued in those very basic things. Paul lists certain virtues in verses 5-7: faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love.
--Then he gives two options.
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
--In verse 4, before he lists these great and precious promises he tells us that these belong to those that are partakers of the divine nature. IOW, theses are characteristics of believers only.

At the end of listing them, he says this:
2 Peter 1:8-9 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
--If you have them you are fruitful; if you don't have them, you are blind and can't see, and have not been purged from your sins--you are still unsaved.
Thus it is not a matter of falling away. It is a matter of being saved in the first place.

It is simply a parable telling us to be prepared for the Lord's coming.

Pay attention to the context. Paul wrote this epistle to those that had been influenced by Judaizers--those that demanded one keep the law and be circumcised in order to be saved. Some of them were swayed by that teaching. Paul says if you think this teaching is true you have fallen from grace. They hadn't for they had been saved by grace. You can't have both.

That this hadn't happened is evident by what Paul said a few verses later:
Galatians 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
--He reassures them that they are not under the law.

Again you are quoting from Hebrews, a unique situation. He was warning Jewish Christians what would happen if they would happen to go back to Temple worship.
Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
--You have a weak translation. Give heed to the word of God, and don't let the things that you have heard slip away. There are many people today who forget the doctrine that they have learned in the past. This is not uncommon.

Again, you are quoting from Hebrews, a unique situation. They were thinking of going back to Temple worship. They were Christian Jews. This is what would have happened but didn't.
How do we know? What is the next verse:
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
--Believers don't draw back.

Why so many verses from the Book of Hebrews? Explain that.
Again, it is a unique situation. They were thinking of going back to Temple Worship. Are you?
Bitterness can defile a person. You seem to show bitterness to some on the board, which would indicate that you have been defiled spiritually. Could this be true? Just asking.

Galatians 4:20-21 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
--They had been so influenced by these Judaizers that they thought they had to keep the law once again; that they were under the law. Paul had to spend time with them again teaching them that they had liberty under grace. With Christ is grace. That is what the expression means. In no way had they lost their salvation.

This is a description of false teachers who were never saved in the first place. They will do their best to entice others into their error.

More Scripture from Hebrews. The contrast is given between the OT and the NT. If you think that OT law was harsh, think what it will be like to stand before God as your judge with all the NT light that you have been given and are responsible for. We also need to take heed to that. We will be accountable at the Judgment Seat of Christ for the works done in this life. We have great light compared to the OT saints.

I take Jesus at His word. No one or anything can do any harm to me as far as my salvation is concerned. No one is able to pluck me out of the hand of Christ.

God gave us a great gift of salvation. He is not going to take it away.
God made me a child of His family. He is not going to disown me.

The Scripture doesn't teach they can. That is only your interpretation.

The Scripture does tell us to be dead to sin; but you have a wrong concept of that verse.

No, I will never fall from grace. Yes, I take the words of Christ seriously.