"Eternal Security" - "Unconditional Security"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SpiritualMadMan, Apr 3, 2006.

  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    On another Thread Dustin Shared
    Dustin kinda hit a nerve, I guess...

    For a long time everytime I heard the term "Eternal Security" growing up it was anathema to me...

    But, when I did my research I discovered something I wasn't aware of...

    It wasn't being "Eternally secure" that my denom was against it was "Unconditional Security"...

    That is, setting aside standard Calvisnism and Arminian views on never saved vs back-sliding...

    The 'sense' that some people believe that once you confess Christ and are Baptized that you can live like the devil and you remain saved...

    Ie., Once Saved Always Saved - Unconditionally...

    To me that sounds rather Catholic, [​IMG] , in that some catholic live like the devil but as long as they make it to confession it OK...

    The OSAS-U sounds even 'worse' than the catholic view of Salvation...

    Then of course there is the extreme other end of the Spectrum where you can lose your salvation for any and every infraction and therefore must always be on ones guard against sin...

    Thankfully, most of us do not fit into either of the most extreme views...

    Now, as an AoG adherent I have no lack of Joy because Ephesians 2:8-9 are my watch word for 'maintaining' my salvation. Ie., I don't because He is the author and finisher of my salvation... Not me...

    We also like Romans 8:35-39 a great deal as it is a real and present comfort...

    Where we tend to differ is where and how much Free-Will plays a part in our Staying Saved...

    Not so much in the keeping oneself saved...

    But, if one really crazy day one weere to decide they didn't want to be a Christian any longer and lick Jesus out of their lives...

    No, granted only a crazy person would do such a thing... And, it is therfore highly unlikely...

    But, we maintain that the possibility exists that a person could insist on their own course long enough (really long~~~~~) to finally exasperate the Holy Spirit...

    I personally have never known anyone that mad at God long enough to rebuff the Spirit that long...

    But, I suppose it is possible...

    I mean, I tried it in anger and was able to stay angry just long enough to know I was angry and stupid...

    I mean when Jesus is standing in front of you with His Arms Outstretched telling you you can't do such and such because He loves you...

    Well, you scream that's not fair, stomp off to your truck drive down the road a ways and collapse crying...

    So, while I believe it is theoretically possible to (intentionally) lose ones salvation... My own experience indicates it is not at all easy to do so...

    Which leads my to a typically Calvinistic thought abouth those that "appear" to do so...

    That they really didn't know the Jesus I know...

    because after coming face to face with that love... How could I possibly continue in sin?

    Mike Sr.

    Oh, I almost forgot what struck the nerve...

    It was the perception that such a one as I has no joy...

    Nah... Gots plenty of joy... Perhaps, too much according to some on the music forums. :D
     
  2. Dustin

    Dustin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    0
    I stand corrected about the joy.
     
  3. Dustin

    Dustin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    0
  4. Dustin

    Dustin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    0
    What I have a problem with is those people who say you HAVE to do things to be and stay saved. Turning the NT into more law. I don't agree with that. I believe in obedience, but I believe grace over it.
     
  5. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey, Dustin you answered during my one hour commute home. [​IMG]

    I, too, have a problem with people who say you *have* to do "things" to be and stay saved...

    But, then I also have a problem with people who say its all by Grace and then preach peripheral doctrines as if, if you don't do them you'll lose your salvation...

    Tithing; Saturday Work Days; Wednesday Evening Prayer Meetings; well, you get the picture...

    Don't get me wrong I think all these things are a part of a growing Christians Life...

    They just ain't saved or not saved essentials...

    Your point about joy is well taken, though...

    Historically, Pentecostals have tended to be the woe is me bunch...

    I am not sure it was the Armenianism thing as much as the, "I'm being persecuted by the devil syndrome".

    Not that some of them weren't... [​IMG]

    But, the whole movement?

    Nah... I don't think so...

    Of course I am not at all sure the new crop is any better, the, I smile all the time & have need of nothing bunch...

    But, then that's yet another thread. :D

    Have a Great Evening!

    Mike Sr.
     
  6. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Erroring in the definition of the word "saved" does not disqualify the truth of the statement "Once saved, always saved".

    "Saved" is biblically defined as "born of God". "Born of God" is biblically defined as a "new creature".

    One is joined together as one with Jesus Christ. Two become One. This cannot be recalled or undone just as any birth cannot be recalled or undone, this is why Jesus used the example of a birth. It is final. Once born of God, always born of God. Once Christ is received, this new creature is owned by God, sealed by the Holy Spirit eternally.

    "Eternal" means "Once saved(given eternal life), always saved(having eternal life). It cannot be any other way, it matters not if some wrestle with the scriptures. God's eternal work within His children will stand forever.

    If you sincerely believe what you just said, then you do believe OSAS.

    I find this with most who argue against the doctrine. They will declare that it is all God's Grace in one breath and then, in the same paragraph even, declare that one must "keep on keeping themselves saved". Now that is "crazy".

    Either God is the Author and Finisher of Your Faith or He is not and You are! Can't have it both ways!

    God Bless!
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    OSAS -

    #1. The 4 Point Calvinist flavor: Get saved then live like the devil if you want - because God will not subject you to the same standard as Adam when it comes to choosing rebellion once you are in favor with God.

    This makes "assurance" a sure thing since "nothing can go wrong" and all those warnings in the Bible can be ignored.

    #2. The 5 Point Calvinist flavor: If you get saved and then live like the devil 10 years from then -- then your first claims to salvation are "retro-deleted" no matter how earnestly you claimed to have assurance back then.

    This is OSAS at the expense of assurance.

    #3. The Arminian version of OSAS - choosing salvation, then choosing to die daily, then becoming sanctified to the point that "you will not choose" otherwise ever. At each step of the way you can have assurance. But only in the last phase of being sealed into that decision irrevokably are you in a state where you will will not change.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Dustin

    Dustin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    0
  9. Dustin

    Dustin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    0
    You make it seem like a Calvinist doesn't care what they do after they're saved by grace. I guess I'm close to a Calvinist, but I care about what I do and I care about whether it's pleasing to Him. I happen to cherish the thought that He holds me and not the other way around.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Only the 4 point Calvinist would fall in that category - the 5 point Calvinist and the 3 point Calvinists both hold to "perseverance of the saints" Rev 14.

    12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

    For those people failure to persevere gets your assurance "retro-deleted"
     
  11. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Glad I am not one of those Calvinist or Arminian then! I am just a born again OSAS Christian! [​IMG]

    The only one who has labeled me is God. He says I am a "saint" a "child of His" "eternally sealed by the Holy Ghost" a "new creature" "One with Jesus Christ". I'm not going to argue with Him. :D I just accept Him at His word. I can only go to hell if Jesus goes with me because I am a new creature in Jesus, and not just a man trying to perservere. I am a child of the living God! I will perservere because Jesus and i are one! Give God all the Glory! [​IMG]

    God Bless!
     
  12. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I really believed that Calvinist believed and actually practiced this...

    I would have trouble, real trouble with it...

    I do not believe that the vast majority of Baptists takes advantage of OSAS; Eternale Security; or Unconditional Security...

    IMHO, the vast majority of baptists are *very* serious about living a Holy Life before God...

    And, 'naturally' avoid sin because they Love God not because they fear Him... Or, the loss of their salvation...

    Which would be very much like this here Pentecostal Believes and Practices...

    Mike Sr.
     
  13. Dustin

    Dustin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob, who gives us the strength to persevere in our faith and against persecution?
     
  14. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why would anyone care unless the person was planning to sin?

    There is no objective test for salvation so the matter is moot.
     
  15. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    A very good question indeed. [​IMG]
     
  16. Briguy

    Briguy
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/briguy.gif>

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    1,837
    Likes Received:
    0
    Steaver has it very right. Let me explain it another way. When a person is saved they are not righteous on their own, by what they have done. It takes complete perfection to get into to Heaven, in fact we could say it takes righeousness that is equal to God's righteousness to get into Heaven. The saved person actually puts on the very righteousness of Christ, not something like it but the very actual righteousness that makes Christ perfect and made His sacrifice perfect and complete. Wearing that very righteousness we are forever perfect in terms of our Heaven standing with God. We are not righteous by our actions or Holy by what we do, we are righteous, perfect, and Holy, because we are in Christ and He is in, with, and around us.

    and all of God's people said---- AMEN!


    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  17. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed Briguy...

    Where 'we' Armenians have a questions is when verses like come into play:

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Fine as far as the literal reading goes...

    The Calvinist, I believe, will correctly point out that there is nothing said about loss of salvation...

    The Armenian response is generally, "Oh, you're just making excuses for sin!"

    And, the fight is on... Sadly...

    As stated elsewhere, unlike most Armenians (apparently), I do not believe losing salvation is a thing accomplished easily, at all...

    But, I do entertain the theoretical possibility that I am the only entity that is not listed in

    Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    So, at least hypothetically, if I were stupid and crazy enough to even want to try, I could ultimately resist the Love of God...

    But, who, in their right mind, would really want to do so after tasting and seeing that The Lord He is Good...

    So, in the end, I think, the real question is the importance we place on personal discipleship and
    the importanance of Progressive Sanctification in our bodies and actions...

    When we are saved we *are* the Righteousness of Chirst Spiritually and Legally in the Courts of Heaven... The Adoption Process is concluded and we are Legitimate Sons and Daughters of God...

    But, we do not yet know how to act properly in our bodies and we are therefore placed under tutors and instructors in Righteousness...

    Not for the sake of Salavation...

    But, so that our Conduct in this Life reflects our position and station in the Courts of Our King...

    If any of this makes any sense?

    Mike Sr.
     
  18. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would agree with this. But if Christ lives in a person that person will not be able to sin repeatedly without conviction. The person who gets baptized and then "lives like the devil" never was (truly) indwelled with the Holy Spirit. If he were then:

    1. The Spirit is not very efficacious.
    2. The NT is a 2 work Torah - thou shalt confess Jesus and thou shalt be baptized.

    Jesus was clear that neither of these is true!
     
  19. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Charles,

    If I take your point correctly we are in agreement...

    As a non-Cessesionist and a Pentecostal I still believe that Tongues is the initial evidence...

    But, just because someone has been filled does not mean they remain filled...

    That is, they cease to Walk In The Spirit, and start to walk in the Flesh...

    For the Classical Pentecostal there was (and still is) an, "I Have Arrived", attitude connected with the "Baptism"...

    What they failed to realize is that it was only a starting point for a Walk in the Spirit and was in no way a gurantee that a person would continue to walk therein...

    In fact one hypothesis I am working on indicates that Tongues as a Prayer Language is more a Word of Knowledge than Tongues as Prophecy...

    That is, The Holy Spirit imparts the Knowledge of a supernatural Language for your prayer life...

    Once that Knowledge is imparted... It can be abused... Allowing a "Tongue Talker" to continue to speak in Tongues even though they have ceased to walk in the Spirit...

    I think it may explain the admonition to test oursleves to see whether we be in the faith our not... And, to test the spirits to see if they are of God or not...

    As I said, this is a hypothesis of mine based on Scripture as viewed through my Pentecostal Roots...

    Maybe this is really yet another thread? [​IMG]
     
  20. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Spiritualmadman,

    I do not practice tongues. I think they were a phenomenen at Pentecost and as such are not normative for believers. That being said I agree that there is no biblical prohibition against them nor is there a mandate that they have ceased.

    But Jesus' description of salvation (from death to life, born again) suggests that salvation is a radical and irreversible change. If righteous status could be gained and lost and gained and lost again then it seems that the Resurrection was not really an end all be all event.

    I do believe that God will preserve His saints, that those who are truly saved, truly indwelled, will be forever changes. Though they will still fall in sin they will never lose the convicting Spirit.

    I do not subscribe to the "once saved always saved" adage, when it is applied as such:

    "Once you're saved you're always saved. Even if you completely fall away without conviction and never bear any fruit you will stay saved but will lose your rewards."
     

Share This Page

Loading...