Eternal Security

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jordan Kurecki, Jun 4, 2016.

  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    What does it mean to be sealed in this verse?

    Ephesians 4:30
    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    What does it mean to be sealed UNTO the day of redemption?

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    What English tense(past,present or future) is the phrase "shall not come into condemnation"?
    How long is "everlasting"?
    Why does the passage say hath(which means "has right now") instead of saying might have or could have?

    Hebrews 12:6-8 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    1. Why is that God chaseneth and scourageth his children?
    2. if these people in Hebrews 12:6-8 lose salvation when they sin as many people believe in this wicked doctrine of insecurity how can it be said that he chastens his sons wouldn't they no longer be sons at this point?

    3. What is the reason according to the above verses that God does not chasten for sin?

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    can you ever really KNOW that you have eternal life if it possible to lose it?

    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shallnever perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    1. What the word "never perish" mean to you?
    2. What does it mean to be plucked out of the Son and the Father's hand?
    3. Do you fall under the category of "any man"

    Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    What does this mean to you?

    1 Corinthians 3:11-15
    For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    How is it that this man's work is burned in this judgment, yet he is still somehow saved?
     
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  2. rsr

    rsr
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    And can you ever know you have eternal life in any case? This has long seemed to me to be the weakest of the five points, but I admit it's personal.

    This is often taken as a checkmark against the Arminians, but the converse applies to the Calvinist who mistakenly believes he is among the elect but isn't.

    We are in God's hands to do with us as He will. I have lost faith at times and even, as Adam Clarke said, "made shipwreck" of my faith. I continue to trust in the Lord as much as I am able.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    "Jordan Kurecki,

    To understand what it means to be sealed in verse 13.....we just need to read with understanding what was written directly before it as Paul explains God's electing grace and particular redemption to those included in the covenant of redemption...watch;

    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

    To the saints, described as the faithful IN CHRIST
    2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Grace and peace are theirs as the Father has given them to The Son.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Our blessings are "found IN Christ
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    We are elected unto holiness in the life....
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    We are predestinated to be adopted and conformed to the Image of the Son.....That is why we are urged to make our calling and election sure, despite some who would scoff at the means God has set forth.
    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    We do not accept anything....He has made us "acceptable, accepted ...in saving union with the Son.It is a Covenant redemption for a particular people.
    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    We have redemption...not a potential redemption....but a full final accomplished redemption.
    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    toward us.....not everyone ever born, but toward us, those called to be saints
    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    it is revealed to us in order that we can take part in the great commission...
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    this is all part of the package
    12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Once the Spirit works in us this is the result.....
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    it is the down payment
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    How is that possible? Either a person believes Christ died on the cross for his sins, was buried, and that he rose again on the third day, or he doesn't.

    If he does, he is obviously numbered among the elect (believers).

    If not, he is obviously numbered among the non-elect (non-believers).
     
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  5. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    It means to have a seal of ownership placed upon one’s person (as owned property), figuratively speaking.

    The Greek preposition εἰς is correctly translated in this context using the English preposition ‘for’ rather than ‘unto.’ The meaning is that upon receiving Christ, we become His and have His seal of ownership placed upon us so that we will be recognized as belonging to Him upon the day of redemption. When property is sold or given away, the seal of ownership is removed and replaced by the seal belonging to the new owner. Jesus, the Apostle Paul, and other writers of the New Testament repeatedly warn us concerning the conditions for continued ownership by Christ.

    John 5:24. Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life. (A MUCH more accurate translation, from the NRSV)

    In the Greek text, the words translated here as “hears” and”believes” are present participles. Greek present participles, unlike English present participles, stress the aspect of the action rather than the time of the action. The aspect of the action is that it is continuous rather than limited in time. Therefore, the promise in this verse is conditional upon our continuing to hear the words of Jesus, and continuing to believe Him who sent Jesus. The English phrase, “does not come under judgment” is in the English present tense and in the indicative mood. The Greek phrase so translated is in the Greek present tense and in the indicative mood. (The KJV mistranslates the tense of the Greek verb translated here as “come.” The incorrect translation of the tenses of the Greek verbs in the New Testament is a serious problem in the KJV.


    Christians have eternal life “right now” because they are “right now” in Christ who is eternal. Christians who walk away from Christ and do not return are no longer in Christ and no longer share in His life.

    God disciplines and punishes His children very much like a human father disciplines and punishes His children. He does this because He loves them and desires to teach them proper behavior. The biblical doctrine of conditional security does NOT teach that children of God needing discipline and punishment lose their salvation; it teaches that children of God who do not heed God’s discipline and punishment, and instead rebel against Him, lose their salvation.

    Of course!
     
  6. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

    27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
    29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)


    Here it is in context,

    22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
    23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
    24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
    25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
    26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
    27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
    29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
    30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)


    In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:

    Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

    Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
    and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)


    Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ, and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life,’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

    The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

    1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
    2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
    3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
    4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
    5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
    6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
    7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
    8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
    9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
    10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
    11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
    12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
    13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
    14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
    15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
    16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
    17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
    18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
    19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
    20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
    21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
    22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
    23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
    24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
    25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
    26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
    27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
    28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.” (NASB, 1995)


    In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithfully abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Understanding requires understanding what it means to be sealed, Who the Spirit of Promise is, and how that relates to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is how one is sealed.

    Simply put, the Spirit of Promise is the Spirit promised by God in the Old Testament, and was spoken of by Christ on the very Day of Ascension:



    Acts 1:4-5

    King James Version (KJV)


    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



    This is something not taking place prior to the day approaching (not many days hence), and we see that Christ had taught the disciples in regards to this promise (v.4 "...which ye have heard of Me").

    And when we understand this, we understand that the "seal" in view is in fact the immersion of men into GOd, which takes place when men are "baptized" with the Holy Ghost.

    Nowhere in Scripture is this even hinted at as being "conditional," but is rather always presented as a one-time event which produces salvation at the time it happens.

    For example:


    Titus 3:4-5

    King James Version (KJV)


    4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



    At least one of the responses to your question here implies a conditional aspect to this, but, we simply keep reading to see what "conditions" are placed on the salvation in view here:


    Ephesians 1:13-14

    King James Version (KJV)


    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.




    Do we think God will renege on His promise? So we see the condition of being sealed with the Spirit of God, which is the guarantee given by GOd Himself.

    Then, we see more conditions of salvation defined by Paul (and ultimately the Holy Spirit):



    Ephesians 2:8-10

    King James Version (KJV)


    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




    Most of us understand we are "new creations," God is the Creator, and this is a result of, not works whereby we might boast, but by grace through faith, which is precisely the same "condition" reiterated by Christ and the Apostles.

    So the picture that Paul paints of the redeemed is a condition created by God, guaranteed by God, and a result of belief in Christ:


    Ephesians 1:13-14

    King James Version (KJV)


    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,



    Man hears the Gospel, trusts Christ, receives the Spirit, and despite whether he knows it or not, has eternal life, which is something he did not have before. He was, like the "fathers" in John 6...without life, because he did not have Christ.


    Continued...
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Again we look at what Paul teaches there: the "sealing" is the indwelling of God, and is a guarantee that redemption will culminate in the ultimate redemption of our bodies.

    Here are a few cross references to consider:


    2 Corinthians 1:20-22

    King James Version (KJV)

    20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

    22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.



    Paul makes a simple point: God does not renege on His promises.

    This next one might seem long, but I recommend you give it careful attention:


    2 Corinthians 5

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

    7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



    What Paul is speaking about here is the believer being glorified, receiving that body which shall be issued, first, at the Rapture, when the Church, both living and dead, are resurrected. Note v.5, where again...

    ...Paul states that God has given us the earnest of the Spirit as that guarantee that we will receive those bodies.

    Paul yearned for the Rapture, but, it was not a matter of desiring simply to die, that he might be with the Lord, but it was a desire to receive that body. Death is preferable, he says, but, that it is not his desire. His desire is to receive that body which we are promised, which, again, is guaranteed by the indwelling Spirit of God.


    Romans 8:21-23

    King James Version (KJV)


    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.



    Here again we see Paul desiring to be glorified. We have the firstfruits of the Spirit, but, we await that day when corruption shall put on incorruption.

    The "redemption of the body" does not nullify the Promise of God, the guarantee of God, nor the seal of God.


    Continued...
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Better yet, why not simply understand the statement in the context of Scripture. The sad fact is that many commit grammatical theological suicide by trying to make a verse mean what they want it to by defining their interpretation into the text.

    The statement is pretty simple, those who hear His Word and believe have everlasting life, which is defined by Christ: they shall not come into condemnation; they have passed from a condition of death...unto life.

    Not sure it is possible to reconstruct the statement to make coming into condemnation and not passing from death unto life the intent of Christ's Word.

    And that in view is eternal life bestowed by Christ through belief is further illustrated here:


    John 5:28-29

    King James Version (KJV)


    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.




    This is the condemnation in view, which the believer has passed from. We do not impose the revelation of the Gospel Mystery here, but, in retrospect we can, having the revelation of the Gospel Mystery, as well as the teachings of the Apostles, understand that in view is eternal judgment contrasted with the life Christ bestows upon those that believe His Word. We also understand that the Mystery of the Rapture is not yet revealed, which means we understand Christ's statements here concerning resurrection to fall within the framework of the Age of Law. In other words, He uses the foundational teachings afforded to the Old Testament believer (and unbeliever) to make the point that those who believe on Him will not come into condemnation...but have passed from death unto life (a condition not previously held by those who come to believe).

    Christ makes the same statement here:


    John 3:36

    King James Version (KJV)

    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.



    So we let Christ define the tense, and I think that is not too hard to see when we see the corroboration the rest of Scripture provides us as to whether believers have (present tense) eternal life, and whether the Lord makes it clear as to whether that eternal life is only a promise, or...that it might be "lost."


    You know the answer to that already.

    Right?

    But there is something as important to understand in the Lord's teaching, which is the condition men are in before they believe, which is a condition of "not having life." That is the contrast made numerous times throughout the New Testament, in both Christ's and the Apostles' teachings.

    For example:


    John 6:53-54

    King James Version (KJV)


    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.



    The Theology that does not understand that men do not have life until they trust in Christ...is a dead theology itself.

    Two things in view above, those who have life (which is the eternal life the "True Bread" came from Heaven to bestow) who will be resurrected bodily (the resurrection body). We know both believer and unbeliever will be raised from the dead, so we can know that the "life" in view here is not physical, but, speaks of a life guaranteed to believers only. This life begins at salvation, and as stated before, is the result of the indwelling of God, Who is the "Seal" and guarantee.

    Again, I think you already know this, though I can understand the question, because we have already seen loss of salvation being taught by some here. But we have to decide if (1) Christ speaks truth and men do in fact receive life, passing from a condition of "no life," or death, and (2) if everlasting/eternal has a different definition when used for either condemnation or life.


    Because Christ, and the Apostles, all teach that the "life" in view is not simply a matter f physical life, but spiritual life.

    Man is born in a condition of not having life, though they are physically alive. Men can only attain to "life" through trusting in Christ. That life is bestowed through those who are dead being indwelt by God, thus does he have "life." Not because a substance called eternal life is poured into Him, but because God Himself makes His abode in that believer.

    Because so many confuse resurrection of the spirit with resurrection of the body, they are blinded to this Basic Principle os salvation. Because the guarantee of the redemption of our bodies is not made distinct from teachings that deal with our being made new creatures when we are brought into everlasting relationship with God, they see a "gospel" that instead of being the fulfillment of the Promise of God...

    ...remains promise.


    Continued...
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    The Writer's point is pretty simple, people do not spend time trying to teach other people's children, which is the point of chastening here, which is an evidence that one is a son/child of God:


    Hebrews 12:8-11

    King James Version (KJV)


    8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

    11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.



    Just like a parent corrects and punishes their children to teach them to do right, more so God chastens His children for a reason.



    There is absolutely nothing in the entirety of Hebrews, much less Hebrews 12:6-8...that teaches loss of salvation.

    And this is one of the fundamental errors of those that teach loss of salvation...they simply do not understand Hebrews. They impose their Soteriology into Hebrews, and make it say that which suits their false doctrine. I am more than confident I can show that to them, though they themselves will not hear it.

    The passage teaches that the chastening is for the purpose of profit for His children. Losing salvation just doesn't seem to fit into the context, lol.


    The passage does not teach that.

    If you study the passage, Jordan, you will see that in view is specific to the sons of God, and how God deals with them, and why He does that. It doesn't create a standard that "God only judges His children" in the physical. We can say, rather, that God does not correct sinners for the purpose of profiting them, that they might yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

    You have to distinguish the intent. The context is specific to persecution, those contrasted being, not sinners who are not judged, but sinners who are persecuting believer:



    Hebrews 12

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

    4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.



    The point would seem to center on not giving up. Just as Christ suffered yet waivered not, even so we are to be steadfast in our walk.


    Continued...
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    That is John's point here...that you/we may know.

    Now go back and read the "these things" john wrote.

    Here is a good example:


    1 John 5:1-5

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?



    What he is saying here is that we overcome by faith in Christ, and when we overcome we are born again (born of God).

    These are some of the "these things" John wrote that we might know we have, not will get, but have eternal life.

    John also points out some "these things" which would evidence one does not have eternal life. For example:


    1 John 4

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.



    The relationship of the indwelling Spirit of God to salvation is one of the most misunderstood issues before the Church today. Confusion concerning the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which has been redefined and minimized to the same empowering God performed in men of faith in the Old Testament has drawn a veil over the eyes of many, even in supposedly "orthodox" groups of Christianity.

    The relationship of faith and belief to being born of God (synonymous with being born from above, born of the Spirit, and born again) is pushed into a back corner of the theology of many, and instead works-based salvation through which "conditions" not found in Scripture are imposed on those weak in faith and knowledge.

    But the false teacher cannot be blamed entirely, for if born again believers would be obedient to the command to seek after God fervently, and to study, they would not fall prey to the ridiculous teachings we see.


    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Well, we know that the "perishing" in view is not physical, because Christ was specific in teaching that men would die for the cause of the Gospel of Christ, right?

    So He is not saying "I give unto them eternal life and they will not perish physically."

    But we don't have to guess, Christ defines what He means:


    John 3:14-18

    King James Version (KJV)


    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



    That is Christ's definition of what He means when He speaks of perishing. He is not speaking about physical life, because God does not put to death those who sin, that is seen throughout Redemptive History. He is speaking about not coming into condemnation, which is the current condition of unbelievers.

    Unbelievers are not saved, are condemned already, and do not have eternal life.


    Doesn't matter for the believer, because Christ makes it clear...they cannot be.

    Secondly, we can't really create a concept for the believer being plucked out, which is precisely what the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) do, lol. Despite the fact that the Lord says it can't happen.

    They say, "Well, that's true...but."

    But nothing, it is an impossibility, and we can take Chris at His Word.

    Lastly, on this point, in regards to the "buts" the L.O.S.T. impose into Scripture, Paul clarifies that physical conditions do not change the believers Eternal SEcrity either:



    Romans 8:34-39

    King James Version (KJV)


    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



    Just not sure we can work "Yeah...but" into what Paul states here.

    Again, Jordan, the concept of...



    Is nowhere to be seen in Scripture, it is found only in the teachings of the L.O.S.T.


    According to Scripture, there is no "any man," for we would have to create a scenario where "any man" might be able to perform that which Christ states cannot occur.

    Secondly, we understand that one is not born again through the efforts of men:


    John 1:11-13

    King James Version (KJV)


    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    We have οὐ, οὐδέ, and οὐδέ to affirm this, lol.

    And understanding that being born of God is a process never said to be reversed in Scripture helps us understand why the brethren that teach conditional salvation err on such a fundamental level.

    The "great theologians" have failed to to recognize the simplicity of the Word of Christ in their scholarly attempts to impose their doctrine into Scripture. All such attempts fail, and the man of faith willing to take Christ at His Word can rest in the comfort those words ensure.

    I mean really, who cannot understand what the Lord means when He says eternal life? Who cannot understand what He means when He speaks of eternal punishment? When He states unbelievers are dead, without life, and condemned already?

    Children can understand these concepts, so why cannot they?


    Continued...
     
    #12 Darrell C, Jun 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2016
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    It means quite a bit.

    First...how does God "begin His work in us?" We are told, He saves us. He gives eternal life. He gives us His Spirit. He cleanses us of our sin.

    But perhaps we might look at the context to further define Paul's statement. Consider:


    Philippians 1:6-11

    King James Version (KJV)


    6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

    8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.

    9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

    10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

    11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.




    Paul is clearly speaking in a temporal context here, which gives us insight to what he says, that God will "finish the work He has begun in us."

    We see that clarified when he contrasts our physical existence with the eternal (eternal referring to that point in time when we leave the temporal):


    19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

    20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

    21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

    22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

    23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

    24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.



    As in 2 Corinthians 5, we see Paul's desire is to be with the Lord, though he understands that being alive is beneficial for those he ministers to. The "salvation" in view is temporal, he being in chains, and we do not impose a concept of Paul being "saved" in a redemptive sense, because he is already saved. Few would argue that. So the "finishing" in view refers to the "follow-up," so to speak, that takes place in the lives of believers in the temporal, meaning God does not abandon His children, nor did Paul think that God would not finish that which He began in us.


    Philippians 1:6

    King James Version (KJV)


    6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



    Paul makes it clear that the good work begun in us will be performed (which has as a root meaning a "bringing to an end") until the Day of Jesus Christ, which at the very least, on the surface, again reiterates Paul's hope, which is not wishful thinking, but a confidence in salvation in Christ.

    The "good work" speaks not just of salvation itself, but the work of God in our lives in progressive sanctification. But, the primary point would be that here...we are told that this is a continuing process, whereas the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) deny that. For them...God will not continue nor bring to an end that which began when He regenerated us through faith in Christ. This places salvation squarely in the hands of men, rather than God.


    Continued...
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Because salvation is made clear it is not of works, thus in view is the matter of judgment that yields reward or loss of reward, which is clear in the text.

    The foundation is Christ, and the works built upon that foundation will be judged. But what the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) do is repalce the Foundation with a different foundation, which is salvation built upon works.

    All believers' works will be judged, even to the very least word we have spoken, and as Paul teaches here our works vary in quality. The quality of those works will either stand in the judgment, or fall. We are given an example of works being judged in both believers and unbelievers here (and since this is going to be a short post I will quote the context in full):


    Matthew 25:33-46

    King James Version (KJV)


    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



    One thing to note in this is that those who are Sheep...never knew they were performing works acceptable to the Lord. Which is the exact opposite of what the L.O.S.T. teach, that men must perform conscious works to "remain saved."

    We see another example here:


    Matthew 7:21-23

    King James Version (KJV)


    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



    Here, those rejected did conscious works which they viewed as making God a debtor to them, but, we see that is not the case. In their minds they performed works that evidenced they were doing the will of God, yet Christ...

    ...never knew them.



    Again, we have to recognize the basic truth that salvation cannot be obtained through works, as well as recognize that works are not divorced from salvation:


    Ephesians 2:8-10

    King James Version (KJV)


    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



    We have to distinguish from the work of God, and the works of men, and the teachings of Scripture make it clear that these are two entirely different things. We have been born of God according to His will, that we might perform that which He has intended for us. Our new creation in Christ has a purpose, which is a Bible Standard...that we might replicate, here on earth, the God of Heaven. One of the greatest compliments we can give another is that they are Christlike.

    The passage you give makes it clear that believers will be judged, and their works will be judged, but it has nothing to do with losing salvation. Salvation has a foundation, and that is Christ, and when one imposes works into that salvation they replace the very foundation itself. Paul makes it clear that this foundation will remain, though that which is built upon that foundation may not.

    Hope there is something in these posts that will be of help, Jordan. As I mentioned earlier, the L.O.S.T. seek to undermine one of the most basic teachings we have in Scripture, Eternal Security, by wresting and imposing into Scripture that which is not there, and worse, what is said to be impossible. They do this primarily by the misunderstanding they have of a number of passages dealing with unbelievers. I would suggest to you that in each of their proof-texts, what they do is make those clearly defined by Scripture as unbelievers...believers. Such passages as Romans 11, Hebrews 6 and 10, and 2 Peter 2 will usually be their favorites, but, we see them wrest many passages which carry simple teaching which, as I said, even a child can understand.

    It's not hard to understand the concept that unbelievers do not have life, and that they are condemned already, as that is the condition all men are born into. It's not hard to see the Lord contrast that condition with the life He came from Heaven to bring. When Scripture speaks of the Eternal God, we do not have to think twice about what it means, but, because men refuse to accept that simple truth, they are forced to impose into Scripture that which is not there in order to justify what they want to believe.

    Salvation is the Gift of God, and cannot be obtained through works of any kind. If that were so, then we can rip out numerous statements by Paul like the one above, and consider Scripture as not worthy of our trust. This is what happens in the minds of the L.O.S.T. who cannot take God at His Word.

    My suggestion would be to better understand the "Seal" of God, which is His eternal indwelling in the believer. And when the L.O.S.T. can present any passage in the New Testament (and that is the revelation we have to ultimately defer to) where one can become unregenerate after being born again, and teaching the removing of the eternal life bestowed when we are regenerated, then they might be on their way to redefining eternal life as taught in Scripture.

    If eternal life can be lost, then it was never eternal to begin with, right?


    God bless.
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    I have to say I am somewhat disappointed to read this from you.

    First...nothing "got Christ crucified." He came for the express purpose of going to the Cross. Only He had the power to lay it down, and to take it up again, and your statement here implies He died on the Cross because of His teaching, which implies those who took Him had power over the Christ.

    That is refuted by Scripture.

    Secondly, you go through quite a bit of trouble to deny what is a pretty simple statement:


    John 10:27-29

    King James Version (KJV)


    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



    You deny...

    1. Christ bestows eternal life;

    2. Those who have eternal life shall never perish;

    3. Those who have eternal life will never be plucked out of Christ's hand;

    4. Those who have eternal life will never be plucked out of Father's hand.


    You suggest...

    1. Christ does not bestow eternal life, just the promise of it;

    2. Those who have eternal life can perish;

    3. Those who have eternal life can be plucked out of Christ's and the Father's hand.


    And we proponents take this passage out of context?

    But, I will just remind you that this is not the only passage dealing with the Doctrine of Eternal Security, lol. We proponents of Eternal Security have many such similar, and simple statements which affirm Eternal Security. Secondly, we can see that the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) not only nullify these simple statements in their hearts, but they cannot even be said to understand the context of many such passages, because they do not fully understand salvation itself.

    In the following statements you equate Israel with the Church, and equate the benefits of being under the Covenant of Law with the benefits of being in relationship with God through the New Covenant.

    I ask you, Craig...do you not recognize the fundamental blunder of doing so?


    Continued...
     
  16. Darrell C

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    Christ's assertion is just a part of the context, which is itself a part of the context of Scripture as a whole.

    And your determination of "what the context is" still...doesn't nullify the statement.

    You are building an argument based on an assumption that those who teach Eternal Security have failed to understand the context, but, again...

    ...you are trying to limit the context. By doing so, it might seem reasonable to those who are not familiar with Scripture, but, there is quite a bit more to the context than an assertion of Deity on Christ's part.

    Can you explain how the assertion of Deity on Christ's part nullifies Christ's words? How men can be taken out of His own and the Father's hand? You certainly won't do it by equating Israel with born again believers who are members of His Church.

    Let's look at that attempt:


    So you are saying God does not mean what He says here?

    I would point out that in view are the "Just," not the Church. While many reject that the New Covenant brought about fulfillment of the promises of God, and that the Just of the Old Testament awaited redemption in Christ, we still see no reason to deny God's statement here. No "context" provided by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) can nullify God's Word. And here He makes it clear...

    ...the Just of the Old Testament enjoyed Eternal Security based on faith.


    You are imposing a concept that is simply not in Scripture.

    That is...that while no man can be plucked, men can remove themselves.

    God asks you a question, Craig...


    Isaiah 43:13

    New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

    13
    yes, from eternity I am he;
    There is none who can deliver from my hand:
    I act and who can cancel it?


    Isaiah 43:13

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    13
    “Even [a]from eternity I am He,
    And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;
    I act and who can reverse it?”
    Footnotes:

    Isaiah 43:13 So with Gr; Heb from the day



    Do you really want to say that man can reverse it?


    Continued...
     
  17. Darrell C

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    The context of the Whole Counsel is also necessary, my friend, and you have ignored the distinction between being under Law and being in relationship with God through the New Covenant.

    You are equating a member of Israel with a member of the Church.

    Salvation is not through heritage, but by the will of God. There is a difference between being born as a member of Israel and being born of God. When you include that into the context you will see the futility of making void that which God has stated.



    One problem with your reasoning...they did not receive the Promise/s.

    That's why we call it Prophecy, my friend.

    That is why we distinguish between the Eras/Ages prior to the Coming of Christ...and this Age.

    "The very same thing" has not been true of "countless Christians God has saved," and it is astounding that you question...

    ...God's faith!

    He promised to be faithful? I am sorry Craig...God is faithful. The failures of men do not nullify His character.


    So you intepret the New Testament by imposing the standard of the Old Testament in it.

    That is why you cannot see the simple truths taught in the New Testament, and miss the simple truths presented in the Old.


    I'm sorry, but nowhere in Scripture do we see men "choosing" to be saved, nor choosing to remain saved.

    Loss of salvation is not taught in Scripture, it is found in the teachings of the L.O.S.T. only, who have to impose into Scripture that which is not there, and deny what is actually there.

    It's a simple truth, my friend...no man can pluck them from His hand. While you can redirect attention to one aspect of the context, you cannot remove what is actually stated.


    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    And when figurative language is used it is used to express truth which is not...figurative.


    The distinction is not as significant as you would make it seem. Both for and unto point tot he same truth, and does not nullify the fact that the Seal endures until the day it was for.

    Now, what is not being added to this point, by you, is that when this statement is made it is made prior to the revelation provided through the Apostles after the current Age passes away, and the Age that begins with the establishment of the New Covenant begins. We do not violate the Mystery/s being revealed by New Testament Writers by implying Christ is revealing them here.

    The "Day of Redemption" differs for certain groups in that in view is the culmination of salvation which is seen in three stages:

    1. Salvation on a spiritual basis (New Birth, spiritual resurrection, i.e., passing from death unto life);

    2. Salvation on a physical basis, the redemption of our bodies (which differs between the Church, who is resurrected at the Rapture, and Tribulation Martyrs, i.e., the Two Witnesses resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation, then those who are resurrected at the end):

    3. Salvation in the Eternal State.


    In all three of those stages the one primary distinction is that this refers to those who have passed from death unto life.

    The life in view is the life bestowed to believers only. All unbelievers remain in a state of not having life, or, in other words...they are dead. They have not passed from death unto life.



    That Owner is God, and it is not just a matter of ownership, but a matter of being made sons of God. We are His Children, lol, not just a piece of property.

    Secondly, nothing in Scripture indicates that God relinquishes ownership or Fatherhood, quite the opposite in fact. You are creating a false scenario not taught in Scripture by mixing two foreign concepts to achieve that: (1) God gets rid of "property" He owns, and (2) "property" can walk away from their Owner. lol

    Third, and most importantly, is a limitation given to what the Seal is. That seal is the indwelling of God Himself, not a stamp on a piece of property whereby God can "recognize" who belongs to Him.


    No, Jesus taught that those that believe pass from death to life, a conversion never said to reverse itself, and cannot.

    Here is an example of Paul;'s "conditions:"


    1 Corinthians 6:19-20

    King James Version (KJV)


    19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.




    Ownership is complete.


    Yet you are overlooking "has passed from death to life."

    You are trying to justify your doctrine with grammatical prowess and doing that which you charge those who are proponents of Eternal Security with.

    And it isn't working.

    You cannot grammatically remove, cover, or place in shadow the fact that believers are made alive in Christ, this contrasted with unbelievers who do not have life. And this is what is meant by having eternal life in Christ. This is what is in view when we are made "new creatures."


    Continued...
     
  19. Darrell C

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    It's again a moot point, lol: because salvation is a process begun in regeneration...of course hearing and believing are ongoing elements of salvation.

    Yet you ignore the one condition which is actually in this verse: hearing and believing, which are never divorced from each other in Scripture.

    And you ignore the result of hearing and believing, one passes from death unto life.

    Care to comment on that?


    So you interpret this as meaning they "will not come under judgment?" Okay...this changes the fact that they have passed from death unto life...how?


    It is only a serious problem for those whose doctrine this translation conflicts with. We can keep your translation and still understand the statement:


    John 5:24

    New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)


    24 Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgement, but has passed from death to life.



    Perhaps you could expound on what "from death to life" means?



    Well which is it, believers walk away from God, denying His ownership? Or they are cast away because they simply don't meet the conditions you impose?

    Could you show me one verse in Scripture where we read teaching about eternal life ending? Just one?


    Continued...
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    In a sense, perhaps, but, we see a distinct difference between the Fatherhood of God and the fatherhood of men:


    Hebrews 12:9-10

    King James Version (KJV)


    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.




    He loves them but will allow them to over-ride His Sovereignty in their salvation, which was freely given to those undeserving of anything but death?

    He loves them but let's them "walk away" from Him?

    Seems to be a little conflicting. Okay...a lot conflicting.

    Well, we can also scratch that thing about leaving the ninety and nine out as well, I guess.


    Sorry, but there is no "Biblical Doctrine of Conditional Security," lol.

    Salvation is gift, not earned, nor maintained by what can only amount to works. We do not meet a particular standard to be saved, nor will we ever meet the standard that will ensure that the Gift becomes a wage earned.

    Children of God who disobey run the risk of chastening, and...physical death. Not loss of salvation. That is about as far from the Gospel of Jesus Christ that one can get. It is based on works-based mentality, and without justification from Scripture. Only when the teachings which are fundamental in the Old Testament are used to create Doctrines that are supposed to be made understood by the New Testament can one conclude that salvation can be lost.


    A hollow statement.

    If one can lose their salvation, then the life they have is not in fact eternal. It is only the promise of eternal life to be received...if they are good enough, or meet certain conditions.

    The complete opposite of what Christ and the Apostles taught.


    God bless.
     

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