Eternal Security

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Iamodd4God, Jul 28, 2007.

  1. Iamodd4God

    Iamodd4God
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    CHRIST TRUTH MINISTRIES OUTREACH
    TEACHING BIBLICAL TRUTH

    ETERNAL SECURITY

    The eternal security doctrine teaches that once a person is saved he/she cannot become unsaved. In other words, a person who is converted cannot become condemned again. This teaching is commonly known as “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS).

    If the eternal security doctrine is true, and a person who is converted cannot become condemned then why did the apostle Paul through the inspiration of God say that a bishop is not to be a new convert, because he may become prideful, and fall under the same condemnation as the devil? Don’t take my word for it, read it for yourself...

    1Timothy 3:1-6 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop must then be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

    ...again, the eternal security doctrine teaches that once a person is converted, he/she cannot become condemned again. Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.


    Never Saved To Begin With

    Many eternal security proponents applies the “never saved to begin with” tag to people who profess to be Christians, but do things they (the eternal security proponent) deems as being inappropriate behavior of a Christian. For example; I read an article where a Baptist preacher said: “A person who professes to be a Christian that murders somebody probably proves that he was never saved to begin with.” Objections like this are easily debunked. With this preacher I emailed him asking him if he applies that tag to all sins or only to sins of his discretion? Then I gave him an example: “For example; do you say that a person who tells a lie probably proves that he or she was never saved to begin with also?” He never wrote back.

    You see the eternal security proponents has two unconfirmed lists of sins; they have a list of “CAN” do sins, and a list of “CAN’T” do sins. The reason I say these lists are unconfirmed is because 1) no list of “CAN” do sins can be found in the Bible. And 2) These two lists vary from one person to the next. For example; a lady told me that I could be in the very act of adultery when the rapture takes place and I would go to heaven. But my uncle who is also a proponent of the OSAS doctrine believes that a person who commits adultery was never saved. Therefore, the lady has adultery on her “CAN” do list of sins, and my uncle has adultery on his “CAN’T” do list of sins. Other proponents of OSAS will agree with the woman, and others OSAS proponents will agree with my uncle.

    Of the bishop spoken of in 1Timothy 3, the OSAS proponents would have to say that such a person was never saved to begin with. However, if that is true, then how is it that the apostle Paul says that he (the bishop) is not to BE a novice; a new convert. How can a person be a novice (new convert) and never have been saved? See how their reasoning wouldn’t hold up, just as water wouldn’t hold up if it were poured into a strainer?


    Why Do People Believe In Eternal Security?

    It is hard to fathom how a person professing to be a believer can systematically reject Scripture and cling on to man made doctrines. But listen, this is nothing new; the eternal security lie started in the garden in Eden...

    Genesis 3:3-4 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    ...God told Adam they were not to eat of the forbidden tree or they “WOULD” die. The devil lied and told them that they “WOULDN’T” die. Today Romans 6:23 is still valid, and the result of sin is death, but the eternal security teachers will tell you that does not apply to the Christians. As you can see the satanic lie has not changed.


    Conclusion

    Make no mistake, people will continue to reject God’s Word, and they will cling to man’s word. Don’t expect to change very many (if any) peoples minds. The fact is “MANY” people who “BELIEVE” will NOT enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21-23).

    The eternal security teaching condones sin, where the Bible DOES NOT condone any sin. The ONLY people who will enter the kingdom of God are those who are “DOERS” of the Word, and not hearers only. The only ones who will have the right to the tree of life are those who obey the commandments (Matthew 19:16-17; Revelation 22:14).

    In the name of Jesus,

    Ken
     
  2. Cutter

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    What was the Devil's great sin and condemnation?
    Pride.

    Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    :13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    :14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    Paul is telling those that desire the office of a Bishop to not let pride condemn them or disrupt their relationship with God. As for your argument, a saved person can be condemned, not to utter destruction, but their relationship with God can be affected.

    David felt condemned when he said, Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
    :12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit.

    He didn't lose his salvation, he lost his joy.
     
    #2 Cutter, Jul 28, 2007
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  3. Cutter

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  4. Cutter

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    Quote, "The fact is “MANY” people who “BELIEVE” will NOT enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21-23)."

    These were lost people who deceived themselves into believing their heart was right with God.

    The passages you are using do not bolster your arguments, they dispel and disprove them!
     
  5. Iamodd4God

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    The devil's condemnation was not pride; pride was the sin. His condemnation is his lost place in heaven, and eventually he will be cast into the lake of fire.

    The apostle Paul is "CLEARLY" stating that this could also happen to new converts who are made bishops. A new convert being placed in such a high position can become filled with pride, and by doing so fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Now you say that the only thing they would lose is their joy, but not their salvation. If that is the case, then that wouldn't be the condemnation of the devil.

    As for David losing his joy and not his salvation. First, let's put it into context; when you read Psalms 51:1-11 this is clearly the prayer of repentance for his adulterous act with Bathsheba. And notice what David asks, God? He asked God to not cast him from His presence, and not to take away the Holy Spirit from him. David had already lost his joy, but he was going to lose a lot more than his joy.

    In the name of Jesus,

    Ken
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    Right.

    The condemnation with relation to 1 tim 3:6 is probably a fall. It may also be that the man was never truly saved since he was not given time to prove himself.

    I didn't say that the only thing they would lose is their joy. They would fall from their place of ministry. They would bring trouble for the gospel. The fall is the condemnation. It does not necessarily imply hell.

    The Holy Spirit's presence was the theocractic anointing on him as king. It was not the personal ministry of the Holy Spirit that we have today.
     
  7. Iamodd4God

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  8. Ed Edwards

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    Oops, I sat down in the wrong pew???
     
    #8 Ed Edwards, Jul 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2007
  9. Pastor Larry

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    How would a person who has been given spiritual life by God stop believing? They can't. The fundamental issue here is what you believe about spiritual life. It is impossible for those given spiritual life to turn away from believing.

    That has been done.

    Reading what you ahve written here, and comparing it with what Jesus said, I don't think Jesus would attach his name to your words, and I don't think you should either.
     
  10. Iamodd4God

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    See what I mean? In order to keep the eternal security doctrine alive you had to resort to saying that the man in 1Timothy 3:16 was never "truly" saved. First, the apostle Paul isn't speaking of a specific person, he is merely giving the qualifications a person who wants to be a bishop must meet. One of the qualifications is that the man is not to be a new convert. How can he be a new convert, but at the same time not be a convert at all?

    Also notice that the reason he is not to be a new convert isn't because he might not be a true convert, but rather he may be puffed up with pride, and in doing so fall into the condemnation of the devil.

    You say that the fall itself is the condemnation. How does that make any sense? I mean you have turned "fall into the condemnation of the devil" into fall into the fall of the devil.

    Let me ask you a few questions in regards to the Holy Ghost:

    1) Does the Holy Ghost only reside in godly people?

    2) When the Holy Ghost leaves a godly person, doesn't that mean he/she has became ungodly?

    3) Will ungodly people go to heaven?

    In the name of Jesus,

    Ken
     
  11. J. Jump

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    Hi Ken and welcome to the board. I applaud you for seeing the Truth of the warnings in Scripture and correctly applying them to saved individuals. :applause: As you can see and have already said there are a great many in Christendom that do not recognize this or see it and ignore it.

    However with all due respect you are misapplying the warnings texts. The warning texts are never speaking about our everlasting destination, but our kingdom destination.

    Those aren't the same thing. One is everlasting and one is 1,000 years in length.

    Again welcome to the board and get ready for the heat that is coming your way because you are applying the warnings to the saved :laugh:.
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Ken, you bring several sound Scriptural conclusions to the table. :thumbs:
     
  13. Iamodd4God

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    You say it is "impossible" for those given spiritual life to turn away from believing.

    2Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

    ...if what you say is true (that a believer cannot stop believing) then how was Hymenaeus, and Philetus able to overthrow the "FAITH" of some? Before you tag this with the "Never saved to begin with" tag the only way faith can be overthrown if there is faith to overthrow.

    You say I have been proven wrong with Scripture. Let me re apply one of the passages of Scripture that I was supposedly proven wrong with...

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    ...I do not disagree with this passage of Scripture one bit. What I disagree with is the eternal security teaching stating that this Scripture proves eternal security is true. Yes! Absolutely true, anyone who "BELIEVES" on God who sent Jesus has everlasting life. This however, does not mean one can stop believing on God, and still have eternal life...

    Romans 11:19-22 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    ...of course unless you want to explain how a Christian; a branch (John 15:5) can be broken off and still go to heaven?

    In the name of Jesus,

    Ken
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: And make no mistake about it. You destroy the import of the warnings by your novel and unscriptural notion that they are not in reference to ones eternal standing before God.
     
  15. Iamodd4God

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    Well, here is the way I see it...

    Matthew 10:24-25 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

    ...I'm in good company. :godisgood:

    When my eyes was open to the truth, which was by the Holy Ghost (PRAISE GOD!) not man, I taught the truth. My former Baptist preacher came over to prove me wrong. Having his Bible in hand he came into my home to discuss my belief. He never opened his Bible. I quoted Scriptures, and all he could do was apply his personal feelings. He left my home, and about two months later he resigned from the church.

    Another Baptist preacher tried to convince me that I was wrong. I stood on what the Bible says, he stood on what John MacArthur says. So they are convinced they are right, because people like John MacArthur says so.

    In the name of Jesus,

    Ken
     
  16. J. Jump

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    Ken you may be in good company, but that text you have quoted in no way proves you are right. Sorry.

    Well we both believe we have been taught by the Holy Spirit, so one of us is fooling himself into believing something that isn't true :laugh:, or maybe we're both wrong, but I doubt that because I don't see a third option.

    Well I would agree that John MacArthur has some very skewed views on things.

    By the way out of curiosity how do you deal with Eph. 2:8-9, which says you "have been saved." It's a perfect tense verb in the Greek which means the action was "completed" in the past never to reoccur and the results of which carry out into the future.

    Also how do you deal with Acts 16:30-31 which says believe (aorist [one-time/not process]) and you will be (indicitive [certainty]) saved.
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You remind me of some great imaginative constructionists for the evolution crowd. The way you build OSAS doctrinal notions out of the mere verb text of a foreign language of a specific word, proclaiming that it must mean "completed" in the past never to reoccur and the results of which carry out into the future” is simply amazing. The only thing I can think of even close to that feat is the evolutionists building complete skulls and even completed drawings of how primitive man looked, arriving at their conclusions based upon their findings of a partial pigs tooth or a fractured portion of the skull of some ape. :)
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    Duh … If he is not a convert, then he is not a new convert. Again, at the risk of repeating myself, the qualification is for spiritual maturity. I didn’t “resort” to saying he was never saved. At least I don’t think appealing ot the teaching of Scripture as a “resort.” Perhaps you do.

    Yes, I think we already dealt with this.
    How does it not make sense? I don’t see what is confusing about that.
    Holy Spirit is his correct title.

    What do you mean by “godly”? Saved? The Holy Spirit resides in all saved people. At times in history, he has given his power to unsaved people, but that was primarily a theocratic issue in Israel’s kingdom.

    The Holy Spirit doesn’t leave once he comes. (See you tried to smuggle your conclusion in there. It doesn’t work.)

    No.

    Faith can be overthrown but that doesn’t mean they lose their salvation. I think you are confused because you start with a false premise and then read everything in light of that.
    I agree. But you deny that the life he “has” is “everlasting.” So you do deny the teaching of this verse. You think he can be given life that is everlasting and then lose that life the next day. Therefore, it is not everlasting. You don’t believe he has everlasting life, because you think he can lose it. If he can lose it tomorrow, then it is only “one day” life.

    If you are going to use Jesus’ name, then say what he says. Don’t make your own stuff up.

    I think perhaps one of the problems here is that we disagree on the authority of Scripture. I do not believe that we are permitted to make up our own doctrine and explain away passages we don’t like. I think Scripture is the authority and it must be honored whether we like it or not. It appears to me that you are perfectly comfortable otherwise. That makes it hard to have a discussion.
     
  19. Iamodd4God

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    No, no, I didn't quote that Scripture to prove I'm right; I quoted that Scripture to show that I expect to be attacked. I expect to be called a false teacher etc., etc.

    Why would the Holy Spirit teach us that we can sin, but not die? That was the devil's lie to Eve (Genesis 3:4).

    Ephesians 2:8-9 in context is talking to people who "WERE" dead in tresspasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1). They are no longer dead in their tresspasses and sin. Where the jailer in Acts 16:30-31 is still dead in his tresspasses and sin, because he asked "What must I do to be saved" which shows he was not yet saved.

    Does that mean a person cannot become dead in tresspasses and sin ever again? Not according to Scripture...

    2Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    A person who has "ESCAPED" the pollutions of the world, can become entangled in them "AGAIN". People makes this to mean a person who has not escaped, but rather a person who has only heard the way to escape. If that is true, then they can't get entangled "AGAIN" because they were never untangled if they never escaped.

    In the name of Jesus,

    Ken
     
    #19 Iamodd4God, Jul 28, 2007
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  20. Ed Edwards

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    God seems to repeat in His word things in according to
    importance. The Messiah, His arrival twice, is mentioned
    much -- it must be important. Among the most mentioned
    is personal salvation. Indeed there are many word pictures
    of Salvation in the Holy Bible. I've divided these word
    pictures into two groups:

    I. Word pictures of a salvation which
    might seem they can be undone

    1. Saved (one might be unsaved?)
    2. redeemed (a slave term where one buys back a
    --- family member they sold into slavery earlier. I guess
    --- you might be sold back into slavery - but see #4 below)

    II. Word pictures of a Salvation which cannot be undone

    1. Born again (how can one be un-born again?)
    2. Re-born into the Family of God
    3. Adopted into the Family of God
    4. Purchased with a Price (the Price is the
    --- death & Resurrection of Messiah Jesus, it isn't going
    --- to happen again, the price won't be paid again)
    5. the Temple of the Holy Spirit
    6. Clothed with Christ
    7. Christian (Christ-like)
    8. Part of the Body of Christ
    9. Part of the Bride of Christ
    10. Become the Salt of the Earth
    11. Become the Children of Pronise
    12. Become new creatures
    13. Become baptized into Christ Jesus
    14. Become enlisted into the Army of God;
    ---- Become Soldiers of Christ
    15. Become Fishers of Men
    16. -- etc. --

    Also mentioned a lot is what one will do after
    salvation. Some confuse these items as that
    which will unsave you???
     

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