Eternal Security

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jedi Knight, May 25, 2009.

  1. Jedi Knight

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    If you do not believe in Eternal Security of the Saints,do you believe they are deceived by the devil? Or on the other hand Do Eternal Security Saints believe that those who believe you can fall from grace think they are blind also? Do we agree to disagree or scoff at our understanding of each other?
     
    #1 Jedi Knight, May 25, 2009
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  2. gb93433

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    So often those who believe one can lose his salvation believe that salvation is obtained by faith and lost by works.

    1 John 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You falsely insinuate that salvation is based on one act of faith, which in reality it is not. It begins with one act of faith but is not completed in totality until we stand before the Judge of All Ages and give an account for every word, deed and thought. In this world we entertain a hope of eternal life, holding salvation by faith not absolute knowledge. That faith is either established by our works in accordance to our faith or our works prove that our hope is built upon dead faith, and dead faith will save no one. Works consistent with ones faith do not save anyone, but neither will anyone’s faith save them that has no works consistent with saving faith. We are not saved by works but neither will any man be saved apart from works. Again, if ones works are not consistent with saving faith it is simply living proof that their faith is dead being alone. Dead faith will get you about as far towards the heavenly city as a dead horse will get you to town. Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Faith has no meaning apart from formed intents consistent with ones stated faith, which is nothing other than a work of the will. Faith is in itself a work, in that it requires an act of the will, a formed intent consistent with the measure of faith God grants to every man. Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
     
  4. Jedi Knight

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    Did you get my question?:wavey:
     
  5. billwald

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    I think that any person who worries about eternal security is not trusting God and/or not trying to be a good neighbor.
     
  6. Jedi Knight

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    I think if one truly believes he can loose their salvation and tell everyone their wrong to believe otherwise....needs to explan why"motive"they insist on it. Is it to encourage ? Is it to warn"you believe the Devil"?
     
    #6 Jedi Knight, May 25, 2009
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  7. historyb

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    Scoff, maybe?
     
  8. gb93433

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    [/quote]
    How many times did Jesus ask Matthew to come follow Him? At what point do you obtain salvation then? It may be one of more small decisions and then the final decision. However one does not become a follower of Jesus Christ until he makes that final decision. It does not matter how many times I would like to hit a home run it will never happen until I step into the batters box.
    How might you interpret 1 Peter 1:1:4 remembering that the word for reserved is a perfect participle.
    1 Peter 1:1:44, “to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you”
    That has nothing to do with salvation but rewards in heaven. You have gotten them mixed up. Your theology does not seem to agree with 1 Cor. 3:15.
    1 Cor 3:15, “If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
    You do not understand faith nor what it means to know in the NT usage. To know is to know intimately with an absolute certainty that is unwavering. It comes out of a historical Jewish background. Sometime look up the Hebrew word for know. Salvation in Christ is not a hope so salvation. As John writes it is an absolute assurance and you can know without a doubt. As Peter writes it is an absolute assurance from the past to the future.

    Stating a faith is nothing more than a creedal faith which is utterly useless and nothing more than words on a page. In the book of James the Jews had a creedal faith and were not followers of Jesus Christ.
    When those who decided to follow Christ in the NT and name him as Lord were also at the same time renouncing the emperor as Lord. Which meant that the emperor could have had them executed. That one decision placed them as a follower of Jesus Christ.
     
  9. Jedi Knight

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    I hear those who say you can loose it because "so-and-so" once believed and now rejects the faith. Simple...... they were lost to begin with....tares. Do you really believe a REAL BELIEVER can stop believeing and follow something else? Jesus said"they will by NO MEANS follow a stranger,IN FACT they will run away.. Anyone who makes a "profession" in Jesus and walks away and says they don't believe it anymore was NEVER a true believer. Remember the FACTS!
     
    #9 Jedi Knight, May 25, 2009
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  10. soninme

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    Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect. :thumbsup:
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Mattew once. Myself? Several times before I followed. How about you? Did you follow the first time the Spirit spoke to your heart of your need?

    HP: In its initial stage, or its final culmination? We accept salvation by faith when we first repent and believe, but there is a time of testing, a time of probation so to speak, where there is a proving out of our faith. Then we stand before the Final Judge to either be finally and forever judged in Christ eternally or not. In salvations initial act of faith, we enter into the hope of our final standing before Go and receive the ‘earnest’ of our salvation, but all is not written in stone from any perspective God allows for us to view it by, until we stand in judgment after leaving this present world. Now we stand by faith in possession of the earnest or sure hope of eternal life, IF we hold fast our profession without wavering until the end. Heb 3:6 “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”



    HP: Agreed, but our decision must be proved to be our final decision as our faith is tested as we walk daily. We must continue steadfast until the end to make it in. One act of faith without a continuance of that faith as shown forth by works consistent with that faith, is mere dead faith and dead faith will save no one.




    HP: 1Pe 1:1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
    3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    First, note the ‘unto obedience’ part in verse 2. Then notice the ‘lively hope’ mentioned in verse 3. If one stays firm in the obedience mentioned, the lively hope will continue as well and for those that keep their first estate will be the reward of finding that the inheritance once held by ‘lively hope’ faith will be turned to eternal sight. It starts with a lively hope and culminates in an inheritance ‘reserved’ in heaven for us. We move from a lively hope “to an inheritance..” which again is 'reserved' for us. Nothing necessitates that we claim that what is reserved for us.

    Have you ever seen something reserved for another that is never claimed? I certainly have. Let it not be named once among us. May we be of those that believe to the saving of our souls! That will only be accomplished through the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus.

    Quote:
    HP: It begins with one act of faith but is not completed in totality until we stand before the Judge of All Ages and give an account for every word, deed and thought.



    HP: Oh but it does. Certainly 1Cor. 3:15 speaks of rewards, but that does not take away anything from the truth that one may start right yet forsake the faith making shipwreck of ones faith and be lost in the end. There will be some that are found in Christ yet whose works suffer loss. No one denies that. What that verse does not do is usher into the kingdom those that have started well but have not kept the faith.
    Quote:
    HP: In this world we entertain a hope of eternal life, holding salvation by faith not absolute knowledge.



    HP: There is a gulf fixed between having an assurance, which by the way Paul refers to it as a ‘hope’ of salvation on more than one occasion, and having absolute knowledge. One is simply deceived if they believe they have absolute knowledge of their final standing before God until they stand in judgment before Him. Faith and absolute knowledge are at antipodes and cannot coexist. Either one has faith or one has absolute knowledge, but you cannot hold something by faith that you know with absolute certainty. Now we walk by faith. Then, at the judgment of God, we will have absolute knowledge. Yes we can know our final state here BY FAITH.
    Quote:
    HP: Faith has no meaning apart from formed intents consistent with ones stated faith, which is nothing other than a work of the will. Faith is in itself a work, in that it requires an act of the will, a formed intent consistent with the measure of faith God grants to every man. Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


    HP: A ‘creedal faith?’ Show us where that is used or defined in Scripture. You either have faith or your faith is dead is the teaching of the Word of God.




    HP: What does this have to do with anything? Where is the proof that although they once had saving faith that they could not have, as Scripture clearly states is possible, turned from that faith and made shipwreck of their faith? Where is the evidence that could have loved once, but turned from that love even as a dog returns to his vomit? You could be killed by giving your body to be burnt for the naming the name of Christ, but if you have not love, it profits you nothing in the end according to Scripture. Love is not some necessitated static notion, but rather must be maintained by actively continuing to form voluntary intents consistent with love and obedience to be viable in the end.
     
  12. Jedi Knight

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    Heavenly Pilgrim "One is simply deceived if they believe they have absolute knowledge of their final standing before God until they stand in judgment before Him." DECEIVED? ....... And if your NOT SURE about YOUR final destination....what makes you sure about what you been taught as well....You've been simply deceived.
     
    #12 Jedi Knight, May 25, 2009
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  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    There is a notion that often comes up that assumes if God has designed an end that it must of necessity come to pass. In the realm of morality, that simply is not the case. Over and over we see God planning to do a work, desiring to do a work, that He in the end cannot due to the choices of the moral agents involved. One case in point: the children of Israel. God often desired certain ends, and even willed them, yet that by no means necessitated the outcome. Man’s selfish will often detered the hand of God from His desired ends. Another example would be those that inhabited Jerusalem. Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

    God has indeed granted to us many warnings to stay faithful unto the end. He has willed that none should perish and that all would come to repentance, but we know full well that universalism will not be the case in the end. Yes, we as believers, holding the hope of eternal life by faith would do well to heed the warnings given to us. Lu 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. Lu 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
     
  14. Jedi Knight

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    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Sound presumptuous? And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything that he has given me, but should raise it to life on the last day. If I give a bank my deposit and they say "its safe with us ...we won't loose it",how much more can I trust the God of the universe to keep my soul? for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to KEEP THAT which I have committed unto him against that day. What day? Judgment day.
     
    #14 Jedi Knight, May 25, 2009
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  15. gb93433

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    Once. Yes

    Remember who Hebrews is written to.

    Was Peter saved even though he denied Jesus three times?


    A perfect participle puts the emphasis on the existing result. In the nature of the case the act described by a perfect participle will be antecedent to the time of the leading verb, but the state that has resulted from the past action will be contemporaneous with the leading verb. The inheritance was reserved in past tense and continues in the present tense.

    Not really. One who does not have salvation has no hope. Once he has received Christ he has hope and salvation at the same time.

    I do not agree with your understanding of salvation. If you believe that then how would you interpret 1 Cor 3:15, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

    I agree but would contend that he never had salvation because one who claims to know God and then turns around and says he never knew God is a liar. The problem you present is the problem we have in America of poorly presenting what Christ commands before people make their decision when all they got was a fraudulent message and swindled into something they knew nothing about. Often those people leave because they realize they were defrauded into believing a lie.

    We cannot judge those people because God's timetable is not ours. If you study history you realize that there were those in the early church who left the faith and then repented and followed Christ.

    I would disagree simply because of the basic definition of faith and the assurance we have of salvation. Salvation is secured by Christ and reserved in heaven for those who are His.

    Heb. 11:1, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

    1 John 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

    The word for know is the same way in which a husband would know his wife. It is much more than just having a head knowledge as we often think about doctrine, etc.

    I would question your view of the Holy Spirit then.

    To have absolute knowledge would be to suggest that one can understand beyond comprehension. Man's knowledge is finite and limited to what God wants him to know.

    James talks about a genuine saving faith and a faith from dead works which is a creedal faith that the Jews held onto.


    I would contend that they may have had a faith that was dead and appeared as thought they knew God but did not and were found shipwrecked. If one confessed Christ as Lord he had to have realized that he could have been executed. Just as there are today in countries where the Christians are under persecution there were also imposters then. I would ask the question how could one who claims to know God turn around and claim to not know God and that He never existed.

    In 2004 I had a dialog with one of those like you suggest. He is on a website promoting atheism and various other anti-Christian materials. When I asked him about his life's story I quickly found out that he had been an elder in a large evangelical church. When I got right down to showing him where he was wrong he wanted no further dialog. He had been on a journey of philosophical arguments but never finding the truth. When I steered him onto the truth and where he had gone wrong he got quite hard against the truth. He did not want to know the truth and how he had gone wrong. Instead he was more interested in misleading people. If he had followed through on the dialog I had with him it meant that he would have had to be humble and admit he was wrong after he already had a following.
     
    #15 gb93433, May 25, 2009
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  16. saturneptune

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    What I am not understanding here, despite the long discourses, is exactly what is it the one does or does not do who is truly saved to slip out of salvation, and once he has slipped out of salvation, how does he regain it? And with this in and out pattern, does one just hope for the best are to his state when death arrives?
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    uote:
    HP: Now we stand by faith in possession of the earnest or sure hope of eternal life, IF we hold fast our profession without wavering until the end. Heb 3:6 “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”


    HP: That is one of the most misused phrases I can think of. It is more often than not the way to selectively dismiss the truth of a passage not in accordance to ones presuppositions, just as you clearly appear to be doing here.
    Quote:
    HP: Agreed, but our decision must be proved to be our final decision as our faith is tested as we walk daily. We must continue steadfast until the end to make it in. One act of faith without a continuance of that faith as shown forth by works consistent with that faith, is mere dead faith and dead faith will save no one.


    HP: First, neither you or I are God. I would ask, saved in what sense? I believe at one time he indeed had a relationship with God and had entered into salvation by faith, but at the time he denied Christ thrice I do not believe ‘in that state of denial, apart from sincere repentance, he could have entertained a sure hope of his final and eternal standing before God. He did repent so the question is mute.

    Bear in mind, we do not have the infinite mind of God in relationship to our salvation. God is not bound by faith. God has hemmed us in by faith. God has not granted to any of us His Infinite knowledge of those that in the end will be saved. God does have Infinite knowledge but He withholds that from us, and rather grants to us our assurance by faith as we fulfill the conditions He has mandated. We are commanded to make our calling and election certain, and to examine ourselves to see IF we be of the faith. If we had absolute knowledge of our salvation as you seem to imply, the commands of God and His warnings are less than meaningful, and in the end mere wasted effort. I do not believe that is the case.

    I am going to stop here to keep the post from getting to long. I am NOT avoiding anything you said, I am trying to see if we can stay focused on a point or two at a time so as not to lose the interest of the reader. My posts have been way too long. Forgive me. In time we will get to all the relevant points of both your and my interest if we hang in there.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,



    HP: Such an approach to language may indeed serve some firmly entrenched presupposition, but language spoken in common parlance is not held to such limited structure as you try to make it. You conveniently overlook the many stated conditions to see such an end come to eternal fruition, even those conditions spoken of in the text itself. If they do not fit the mold needed to support your presuppositions, you evidently simply dismiss them as irrelevant.
    It is amazing to me how some seem so adept at parts of speech etc, and yet when it comes to recognizing a clear condition of salvation as set forth by the two letter word “IF” they seem oblivious to the import of that little word. Simply amazing. Here is such a verse. Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

    Quote:
    HP: We move from a lively hope “to an inheritance..” which again is 'reserved' for us. Nothing necessitates that we claim that what is reserved for us.


    HP: When one receives Christ we enter into the hope of eternal life, that which Scriptures say we have the ‘earnest’ of now held by faith. Yes, it can be said that we are in possession of salvation now, BY FAITH. We will remain in that state of faith in our eternal inheritance if we remain obedient, firm unto the end. Again, play close attention to the conditional statement made conditional by the little word ‘IF.’ It does not take an English major to understand such a conditional statement, just an open and honest heart for the truth. Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Quote:
    HP: It begins with one act of faith but is not completed in totality until we stand before the Judge of All Ages and give an account for every word, deed and thought.


    HP: First, all will not be saved. It MUST be speaking only to those that are saved and have remained faithful, even though some of their works may have been done with the wrong motivation and as such prove worthless as far as rewards go. There is not the least inkling that sin is involved in the works that prove worthless for rewards. If they were not faithful they would not be saved in the end.
    Quote:
    HP: Certainly 1Cor. 3:15 speaks of rewards, but that does not take away anything from the truth that one may start right yet forsake the faith making shipwreck of ones faith and be lost in the end.


    HP: You make no sense to me. One can certainly have known God and turned away from his relationship with God. Scripture clearly warns us in many places of that possibility. When one turns away from the light his light becomes darkness and oh how great that darkness. From that darkened position the enemy of our souls certainly can and will try to deceive the individual into believing that he never had anything to begin with. Happens all the time, even in many Churches. We hear it in testimonies that claim, “Well I know that I have been in the Church today for 30 years and taught Sunday School classes or preached etc, but today I realized that I never know God.” I certainly would not lay any money(if I was a betting man) that such in reality was the case. I would rather believe that they started out right but fell into condemnation and they are forced to give such a testimony due to the doctrinal prejudice OSAS has forced upon them.



    HP: I certainly would agree with you there, but it goes deeper and broader than that. IT IS THE UNDERLYING PHILOSOPHY AND THEOLOGY OF THE EASY BELIEVISM MESSAGE that I believe is largely to blame. The false notion of OSAS lies right at the core.
     
  20. gb93433

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    Well I have never heard it used once so it is a first for me. To prooftext and have no idea of who a book is written to is about as useless as using the words of an atheist to prove that God does not exist. The most basic fundamental rule of hermeneutics is that you cannot interpret a text apart from its historical context. There are texts which appear difficult to interpret and understand but there are others which are quite easy. If you knew who Hebrews was written to and for what purpose you would know why the writer of Hebrews wrote what he did.

    Again I ask you was Peter saved? He had one act of faith without a continuance. That is until he repented. In the interim did he lose his salvation and then gain it when he repented? Imagine if every time you did something wrong when you were in your parents home, and every time you did something wrong you were removed from the home and your inheritance was conditioned on your being sinless would you have an inheritance? Of course not? God’s love for us is not conditional and our salvation is not conditioned on our being sinless. So our salvation being reserved in heaven is not conditioned upon our sinlessness. It is conditioned upon one thing—our relationship with God, not our sinlessness.


    My salvation is secure in Christ and reserved in heaven. Knowing that why do you think Paul addressed the issue in Romans 6? He addressed the very issue you are dealing with.
     

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