Eternal Security

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HP: A ‘creedal faith?’ Show us where that is used or defined in Scripture. You either have faith or your faith is dead is the teaching of the Word of God.

HP: “A faith from dead works which is a creedal faith??” Show us that from Scripture. Is there any end to the made up terms that are simply without merit? Show us a Scripture that states anything about a ‘faith from dead works.’
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HP: Where is the proof that although they once had saving faith that they could not have, as Scripture clearly states is possible, turned from that faith and made shipwreck of their faith?

HP: Again, you inject into Scripture a notion that is completely foreign to it, i.e., that is one can have faith yet it is dead. Dead faith is worthless faith and worthless faith is equivalent to no faith. Dead faith is as worthless as salt that has lost its savor, and is henceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

HP: If the faith of one that was executed because he confessed Christ was in reality dead, having no fruit to substantiate his faith, he would simply end up another dead and lost sinner in the end. Without love for God, what does it do to give ones body to be burnt? Nothing according to Scripture. If ones faith they PROFESS to have is found in reality to be dead, they do not love God. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

The point of the apostle James was simply this. Dead faith is paramount to worthless faith. Dead and worthless faith will never save anyone.

HP: What if I once knew of a Baptist minister that preached OSAS and had an affair with the pianist in the church and left the church and his faith as a result of it. ………..

I have no idea what you are trying to prove by such an illustration. I am just curious. What denomination was this man? Maybe you would suggest that all that belong to that denomination are likely to follow the same path? Well, lucky for me , I do not belong to whatever denomination he did.

How about you GB? Could ‘the possibility exist’ it is you that needs to humble yourself, and admit to your error? Just wondering. I would not have asked such a question but since you brought it up I thought it would be proper to do so.

 

HP: Sorry for the long discourses, I am trying to break them up into shorter segments. We are in trouble if we do and in trouble if we don’t. If we post short after many questions we are labeled as running from the arguments. If we post long we get boring and lose the interest of the reader. Such is the life on the boards.

More often than not I am afraid, many do seem to slip in and out of their once firm standing. I believe that is the reason Scripture admonishes the listener in this fashion. Heb 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

We should be seeking a stable consistent walk before the Lord. Only as one walks daily in such a walk is their hope of eternal life consistently burning bright. That is the pressing need of the church today, a stable and holy, consistent walk in obedience before God.

Should that not be the honest goal of every believer in this present world, to walk consistenly holy before God daily? I would certainly believe so. It all starts with an honest desire, a 'want to,' believing it possible to so walk with the help proferred by the Holy Spirit. " I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me." 1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

That is a lot of words to try and dismiss the grammatical issues in the text itself. Was the writer wrong in using that tense in that particular text?

It is amazing how fast you have failed to address the purpose and who Hebrews was written to. Heb 3:6 is a declarative statement. It is much the same kind of statement that if you are baptized you will be saved. If you were baptized under the early church conditions of persecution and named Christ as Lord then likely you would be saved. Just because someone has water sprinkled on their head in America or dunked in a water tank in America means almost nothing.

Hope of what until we receive Christ. A Christless eternity is no hope at all.

If a person has not made disciples is that person "in the faith"?

 

HP: Enlighten us GB.
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HP: Agreed, but our decision must be proved to be our final decision as our faith is tested as we walk daily. We must continue steadfast until the end to make it in. One act of faith without a continuance of that faith as shown forth by works consistent with that faith, is mere dead faith and dead faith will save no one.

HP: You are going to have to get past the idea that salvation consists in total of one act of faith. Is starts with one act of faith, it continues daily as we walk I obedience, and it will be culminated in finality at the judgment. As I stated, Peter could not have been in possession of a certain hope of eternal life while in a state of denial. God has not so designed our assurance of salvation as to be securely held when in a state of sin and disobedience or denial.

HP: No one loses hope of salvation entirely except for two cases. One, if the Holy Spirit has been completely withdrawn as in the case of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Second, if one persists in sin in an unrepentant state until death.
Here is the problem once again. God sees the beginning from the end. We do not except ‘by faith’ as we are walking in the light. When sin is present, it shields the light of a sure hope from being realized. Only as we repent and turn from our sins does God’s Spirit testify clearly to our Spirit that we will be found in Him in the last day. Any assurance of ones final standing before God while in possession of a conscience NOT devoid of offense, is shaky at best, and most likely pure presumption. Only as we are walking in the light of obedience do we have fellowship with God and have the assurance that His blood cleanseth us from all sin. 1Jo 1:7 BUT IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” Notice the clear condition in this passage noted by the words, “BUT IF.”

 

I should have stated that differently.

You have proven my point well. Where is it? A genuine saving faith produces works in accordance with a genuine saving faith.

It is not a genuine saving faith as James wrote about.

Lots of them on this earth. Would include Bob Harrington? You cannot make the foundation of your doctrine based on the experiences of men. Non-Christians conclude that all the time about Christianity. Just because man falls short of the glory of God does not negate the gospel and its power.

Romans 6 address the same issue you bring up about the fallen preacher.

 

I do not believe that is the reason why Hebrews 6 was written. A baby would die without proper nourishment and encouragement. That is what happens when a new believer is not discipled and taught to follow Christ through word and deed. The problem is that those who are to be examples and making disciples are disobedient and the disobedient are judging the infants to be not saved.

I agree.

 

Hebrews was written to new Christians vacillating back and forth between Judaism and Christianity as persecution came.

How might that happen in America?

You are misunderstanding me or assuming that is what I believe. It is not.

Did Peter lose his salvation at the moment of denial? I would claim not. I would contend that he was double minded at the moment.

That is a third class conditional sentence.

 

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Such an approach to language may indeed serve some firmly entrenched presupposition, but language spoken in common parlance is not held to such limited structure as you try to make it. You conveniently overlook the many stated conditions to see such an end come to eternal fruition, even those conditions spoken of in the text itself. If they do not fit the mold needed to support your presuppositions, you evidently simply dismiss them as irrelevant.

HP: No verb tense precludes clearly stated conditions for the obtaining of an inheritance.


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It is amazing to me how some seem so adept at parts of speech etc, and yet when it comes to recognizing a clear condition of salvation as set forth by the two letter word “IF” they seem oblivious to the import of that little word. Simply amazing. Here is such a verse. Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

HP: You are going to straighten us out on those being addressed and to what purpose it was written. I am listening.

If you are baptized will you be saved? Then tell me what baptism it speaks of. Is it in water, is it baptism into Christ, or it the baptism of the Holy Spirit? I say you can be baptized and come up the same way you went down, with the exception of being slightly wetter, if it is water baptism you speak of. I think you would agree.

HP: I believe I know what you are pointing to here, and I would not necessarily disagree. It would seem logical that one would be less likely to feign a salvation experience if their necks were on the line.
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HP: We move from a lively hope “to an inheritance..” which again is 'reserved' for us. Nothing necessitates that we claim that what is reserved for us.

HP: You are not addressing my point. My point is that now we hope for that which is promised, under certain conditions, to be ours IF we be not moved away from our faith. 1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:”
You have to have true faith and a clear conscience in order to put them away making shipwreck of them. Now we have faith in our inheritance, then we will receive our inheritance. Now we have a lively hope in that which is now reserved to be granted to us in finality at a later time. You understand the tense of words so I am certain you will understand that something ‘held in reserve’ to be granted at another time is in fact not realized as a reality now in its fullest expression or it could not be reserved, now could it?

Now we have the earnest of our faith. Again the word ‘earnest’ speaks to something other than that which is to be held until the judment. The earnest is that which is held as a promise of that which ‘in the future’ will be received in its absolute fullness. Both ‘earnest’ and that which is held in ‘reserve’ speaks to something in the future yet to be revealed in its full expression.

Now we have the ‘hope of the promise,’ the earnest of the promise, the promise now being held in reserve until the appointed time yet to come when we shall receive the promise itself in its fullest expression. Until then we hold our ‘promised' possession by faith. There again, even the word ‘promised’ carries with it something yet to be realized in it fullest sense. Certainly we realize salvation now, but NOT in its fullest sense, and now by faith, not absolute knowledge. There are clear conditions that must be fulfilled and cannot be fulfilled until this life is over, without which no such hope will be realized in that day of judgment. Col 1:23 “IF YE CONTINUE in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

 

SAY a lie box and qualified operator was brought into your congregation and every person was tested for "belief" in Jesus. Those who failed the test were excommunicated. Would this tell us anything about the ultimate state of the remaining people?

 

there would most likely be one or two left

 

HP: Happens often to me as well. I am constantly learning how to communicate thoughts to others, and find myself often restating things to be hopefully better understood.
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HP: Where is the proof that although they once had saving faith that they could not have, as Scripture clearly states is possible, turned from that faith and made shipwreck of their faith?

HP: But I see you as begging the real question. In this life deception is a real possibility for all of us. We have to constantly prove our faith, and examine our selves to see that we are remaining of the faithful. You nor I know with absolute certainly of our final standing with Christ. We only see it now ‘by faith’ not sight or absolute knowledge. We may certainly have a solid assurance today, but if in fact future formed intents and subsequent actions prove to be contrary to our once held faith, we would have some serious repenting to do to get back on track again. All the more reason to seek God for the establishment of a consistent holy walk before Him.
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HP: Dead faith is paramount to worthless faith. Dead and worthless faith will never save anyone.

HP: It is not in reality faith at all. It is dead. It is deception. Such ‘faith’ is nothing more than a figment of the imagination of the one professing to have faith if their works are not consistent with their professed faith. James could have simply stated if a man says he has faith apart from works he is simply and completely deceived as to what faith entails and involves.

HP: Amen GB. I totally agree.

HP: Again, I agree. Our promise should be, “Ps 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.”

 

HP: Dead souls, having began right, as children of God, but have died on the vine due to many things including improper nourishment, encouragement, to say nothing of giving in consistently to temptation, are still dead having been alive once, and that without hope UNLESS they turn from their dead state back to a lively hope and walk of obedience.

Maybe I should have asked, can a dead baby be dead and alive in Christ at the same time in the same sense?

HP: What I see as a hindrance to their walk of obedience, is to tell them in the end their formed intents and actions have nothing to do with their final standing before God. They have had all their future infractions of the law forgiven before they were even born, all they have to do is believe it so and… Shazam! It’s done……. Well you an even forget the Shazam! It was already done before I said Shazam! Maybe they don’t even have to believe. If it has been forgiven once for all it either was or it wasn’t so nothing I do period has any bearing on my final standing before God. Ain’t I lucky to be chosen!

Now you know I really do not believe such is true, but I do believe that is the direct direction of much of the so-called nourishment (not) so many get out of what I might denote the modern gospel. Is it any wonder we see so much 'belief' and 'faith' yet so little evidence it is real?

One thing I have concluded, deception is certainly real in the church today. Certianly we must be living in the last days.

 

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HP: You are going to have to get past the idea that salvation consists in total of one act of faith.

HP: I do not desire to misunderstand you, nor falsely represent what you believe. Could you elaborate on the meaning of salvation from your perspective from Scripture so as to hopefully clarify any misunderstandings that might exist? Thanks.

 

Might I suggest that you study the historical context first and then the text in light of that historical context instead of prooftexting to make a point you already have based on a misreading of the text in light of a context you know anything about.

Romans 6 quickly dispels your fears. It is not about presuppositions. Another is 1 Jn 5:11-13. Remember that the NT was written mostly to Jews. For a Jew to "know" is much more than the way we assume it to be. You cannot press Noah's definition onto the context of the Hebrew language and background of the Jews. For a Jew to know meant that he had much more than just an intellectual knowledge of something but rather an intimate knowledge. One either is in Christ or he is not. It is that simple.

I find "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household" to be very simple and true. However the legalistic disobedient try to muddy the waters as the pharisses did by burdening people.

It has nothing to do with grammar but has everything to do with context in which the text was written. Words only have meaning in their context otherwise they are just words. Prooftexting is nothing more than an athesist proving God does not exist. However someitmes it does hinge of having a correct understanding of what is actually written.

It is not a matter of straightening anyone out. The information is readily available to anyone who would read it. Scripture was written in a given context and addressed to real people. If you do not understand the historical context then you know nothing about what is written and why it was written. That greatly influences how one would intewrprewt a message. Imagine what you would need to know if you read the wods "I love you." You would certainly want to know who it was from so you could interpret those words correctly.

In the context of when the NT was written and confessing Christ as Lord then most likely you would be saved. If in an American context of today then you may have just gotten wet. May a pastor has gotten a lot of people wet under false pretenses and in an effort to get better statistics to avoid the pressure of looking bad or gaining a good image until it all blows up.

All I see is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing more and nothing less. I have never heard of lively hope. Your hope is in Christ or it is not.

Col. 1:23 is an affirmation of reality. There is no condition to be met. Col. 1:23 is a first class conditional sentence. A first class conditional sentence is an affirmation of reality and should be translated "since". It affirms the fact of what they are already doing. Your English translation is poor following after an Anglican and KJV as well as RCC tradition. Most first class conditional sentences in Greek are translated the same way as a third class conditional Greek sentence in English. Ever ask why?

 

I am not sure what you are asking. I cannot judge another's soul but we must judge their actions. If what I think you are asking is t=right then the only evidence I might suggest is in 1 Cor 5:5. "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I would disagree in that we can know with certainty. Paul dealt with that in 1 Cor 15.

 

Salvation is past, present, and future. Certain aspects are past, another is present, and another is future. One aspect of salvation is temporal and another is eternal.

 

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Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Where is the proof that although they once had saving faith that they could not have, as Scripture clearly states is possible, turned from that faith and made shipwreck of their faith?

HP: The only way we have to judge the state of our own soul subsequent to initital faith is by our actions and the witness of the Spirit. The Spirit does not attest to our final standing with God while sin is active and unrepented of in our lives. How else our 'we' going to examine 'ourselves?' James addresses the one that simply says he has faith. We cannot judge our faith by our faith or have faith in our faith. There must be some supporting evidence via works to judge it by. If a man says he has faith but his works are at antipodes with that faith, will his faith save him? Not according to Scripture.

If one makes shipwreck of their faith, they must have had faith to begin with. If it is possible to make shipwreck of ones faith, it is possible to have a proper standing before God and lose that standing due to disobedience.
As for 1Cor 5:5, that passage by no means states or implies that such a one in the end will be saved due to the fact moral creatures having the ability to resist any and all avenues of correction. Paul certainly would hope that such actions would bring about their return to salvation’s hope, but there is no guarantee of that being the case from the Scripture itself. They may refuse the correction and in the end be lost. If there is moral accountability, there must be freedom to do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances. If choice to do so is not present, or if there is only one possible consequent to a given antecedent, no moral accountability can be predicated of the action.

We do many things to the end that the souls of others may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, but that does not nor will it necessitate such to be the outcome of our efforts. Again we are speaking of moral agents we are dealing with not necessitated spiritual zombies.
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HP: In this life deception is a real possibility for all of us. We have to constantly prove our faith, and examine our selves to see that we are remaining of the faithful. You nor I know with absolute certainly of our final standing with Christ.

HP: I believe we can know with certainty, just not absolute certainty. If faith is involved there must be some element of the possibility of doubt. You cannot 'hope for' or 'have faith in' that which is known as an absolute reality. We know by faith, as proved out by what we witness as the results of our formed intents and actions enlightened by the Holy Spirit. God alone knows absolutely of the salvation of any. He has withheld such absolute knowledge until the time of the testing of our faith is over. Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

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Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
=I do not desire to misunderstand you, nor falsely represent what you believe. Could you elaborate on the meaning of salvation from your perspective from Scripture so as to hopefully clarify any misunderstandings that might exist? Thanks.

HP: An interesting response. Maybe it’s just my nature, but I sense something is not as it might first appear. Is one OSAS at the moment of ones initial salvation experience?

Are the present and future aspects of salvation merely necessitated realities, necessitated not only to be, but to eternally be, based entirely upon the past aspect of salvation you refer to?

 

HP: But that particular verse begs the question, how do I know it refers to me? I would first go back to 1Jonh 3: 18-24 to examine the evidence, and THEN if the evidence is clear as testified by a conscious void of offense before God and man, the truth of Col. 3: 1-3 indeed becomes a great comforting promise!

HP: A wonderful promise indeed for those whose heart and conscience is pure and stayed upon God!