Eternal Union of Christ and His Children

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jul 2, 2011.

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  1. savedbymercy

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    Heb 2:11

    11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    Many today reject the Truth of the preexistence of Jesus Christ the God Man Mediator, but in our passage here prov 8:20-30 there is no doubt in my mind, that Christ is meant here in this passage about wisdom, who by the way is declared to be the Christ in

    1 Cor 1 :24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    Notice that Paul writes Christ , this is significant, because this points out that as God's wisdom He was anointed, a Anointed Man [ for Deity is not anointed] and this fits perfectly with what He declares of Himself in Prov 8 :23

    23 I was set up [anointed] from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    The phrase here set up is the hebrew word :

    nacak which means:

    to pour out, pour, offer, cast

    a) (Qal)

    1) to pour out

    2) to cast metal images

    3) to anoint (a king)

    No doubt this is a reference to the precreative anointing of the God Man, the Christ of God, the wisdom of God.

    This establishment of Jesus Christ here is in the spiritual unseen world into His office of Mediatorial Manhood, and the Head of the church, this mind you was not God the Eternal word in view, for He being very God of very God, needed not to be established or anointed, no more than the Father needed to be established or anointed..

    Prov 8:24-25

    24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

    25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

    The NIV says this :

    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water;

    25 before the mountains were settled in place,
    before the hills, I was given birth,

    The septuagint says:

    24 even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: 25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.

    That there was a eternal generation or begetting is certainly indicated here, but who is that is being begotten ? Is it the eternal logos, no its not, for that feeds into the pagan ideology of begotten Deity, of which there is no such thing within the True God Head, for that is a blasphemous teaching of the Antichrist [ to include the nicene creed], but what we have here is the Father begetting the Man Jesus Christ in His spiritual Manhood, which is not to be confused with His manhood of flesh and blood to be later through the virgin birth. This was begetting as the head of the church, His body per

    Col 1:15-18

    15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Also Rev 3:14

    14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    Eternal Union of Christ and His Children cont


    We have attempted to set forth the Lord Jesus Christ as the wisdom of God personified in the eight of proverbs and from there to establish the Eternal Union of He and His children.. Jesus said at one instance :

    Matt 11:19

    The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

    cp Heb 2:13

    13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

    Now returning to the proverbs lets read vs Prov 8:26-30

    26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.


    27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

    28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

    29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

    30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

    Here the inspired penman Solomon sets forth Christ in His continual presence with the Father [ In pre creation] in His original spiritual state; when even then He was as Hebrews described [ Heb 1:3] the expression of the Fathers substance..

    We have the God of Glory Acts 7:2 and the Lord of Glory 1 Cor 2:8

    Now the question is this, were the elect of God present in all this ? Yes, for they as Christ were first in the Father and then in Christ, now this is not a flesh and blood existence i speak of, but a actual Spiritual Union and existence. Let us look at Jn 17:6 to help shed some light vs 6

    6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    Notice the phrase " Thine they were, and thou gavest them me " They were given Him by being chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4, but both He and them came out of their Father which is signified in Heb 2:11

    11For both he [Jesus Christ] that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified[children, brethren] are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    They Are all of One Father and serve One Eternal Purpose. He is the elder brother, we [ the children] are his younger brothers and sisters, He is the Head and we His body or members, all originate out of God the Father. The Father in pre creation, separated out of Himself, His Son and His children, and He entrusted them [ the Children ] into the care of His Son..Thats why Jesus says in Jn 17 :6

    6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    Now here is the truth, Just as Adam in time, when He was created, He had created in Him, all the physical earthy lives of the elect in Him, and so He served as a type to the Lord Jesus Christ, who when He was begotten in eternity, also Had the all the spiritual lives of the elect within Him..

    For this is how we begin to establish the eternal union of Jesus Christ and His children..
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    Eternal Union of Christ and His Children cont

    Lets look at Prov 8 :30-31

    30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

    31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men

    In these verses we see the delight the Father had in the Son, because of their intimacy of purpose and spiritual union. How many times did we hear the Father say of the Son during His public ministry these words:

    Matt 3:17

    17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Matt 17:5

    5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    In Isa we read these words of the Lord Jesus Christ Isa 42:1

    1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    Interesting enough the word delighteth in the hebrew is the word:

    ratsah which means:

    to be pleased with, be favourable to, accept favorably

    a) (Qal)

    1) to be pleased with, be favourable to

    And notice that the aorist past tense is used back in Matt 3:17 and 17:1, for the Father had been well pleased with the Son before the foundation of the world, for the Father delighted in Him for His suretyship in the engagements of the everlasting covenant.

    vs 31 shows that the Father and the Son broadened their rejoicing and delight to include the Sons of men, or the world of the elect, the world God loved in Christ, Christ spiritual brethren and sisters:

    Jn 3:16-17 ; 2 Cor 5:19 ; this world in distinction from the world that dwells in the wicked one 1 Jn 5:19, the condemned world 1 Cor 11:32, and the world for whom Christ did not intercede for Jn 17 :9
     
  4. billwald

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    RE: thread title

    e·ter·nal/iˈtərnl/Adjective
    1. Lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
    2. (of truths, values, or questions) Valid for all time; essentially unchanging. More »
    Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary

    This union is without beginning. <G>
     
  5. Dr. Walter

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    There is no "eternal union" between God and the elect except "according to His purpose" which is eternal. Such a doctine makes us GOD and equal to the Son of God as anyone who is actually in ETERNAL UNION with God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    Again you cannot distinguish between things that are eternal ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE because His purpose is ETERNAL and application of that purpose in time and space.
     
  6. savedbymercy

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    dw:

    To deny a eternal union with Christ and His Church is to deny the existence of Christ before the world began. For the Church, His body [Seed] was Chosen in Him before the Foundation Eph 1:4

    4According as he hath chosen us[His Seed] in him[Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Thats the Union being declared as a reality right there. As the seed is in Union with its Progenitor. An example was Abraham and Levi where it is said that Levi while in the Loins of Abraham, Payed tithe's to Melchizedek. Heb 7:

    9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

    10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

    Levi by Divine Purpose was in Abraham His Father. He was of Abraham's seed.

    Now Christ, because He was an Progenitor setup before the world began, is called the everlasting Father Isa 9:6

    6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    That Christ also had a seed in Him is seen in Isa 53:10

    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    The seed and it's Progenitor which is another term for Father, are vitally One in Life. Now if you deny this Union of Christ and His Church before the world began, then you deny that Christ existed before the world began.

    Grace was Given us [The seed ] in Christ Jesus, when ? Before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

    9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Now if you believe that Christ Jesus only existed in Purpose before the world began, then that is another error altogether and we can discuss that a little in this thread. But be it known that is an error if you believe that.
     
  7. Dr. Walter

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    Out of your own mouth!!! Thus you make the elect GOD just as Christ is GOD as Christ is INSEPARABLY UNITED to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

    You apparently do not understand the prepositional phrase "in Christ" as used in the scriptures. The only spiritual union with Christ is in regeneration where we are united spiritually in the sense that He indwells us. God's eternal purpose "in Christ" simply means that God's plan for our redemption is found IN THE PERSON of Christ rather than IN OUR OWN PERSON. In His Person we were represented, we were provided redemption, sanctification, etc.


    God's eternal purpose "in Christ" merely means that before the world began that God purposed that Christ should REPRESENT us by his life and death and that salvation would come through his representation of the elect. It has nothing to do with spiritual union with Christ before the world began as we are NOT GOD and Christ is God in His Person.

    We are now "seated....in Christ" in heavenly places meaning we are REPRESENTED in his person before the Father.

    The prepositional phrase "in Christ" is used at least three or four different ways in Scripture. We can be water baptised "in Christ" so that we "put on" Christ in water baptism thus "in Christ" FIGURATIVELY or SYMBOLLICALLY. We are to "walk IN HIM" (Col. 2:6) or walk EXPERIENTIALLY in Christ because we can choose to walk "after the flesh" as well.

    We are also POSITIONALLY in Christ by justification through faith. We are "in Christ" be creation in regard to regeneration (Eph. 2:10).

    We are also "in Christ" METAPHORICALLY through metaphorical membership in his metaphorical congregational body (1 Cor. 12:27).

    However, we never were "in Christ" by ETERNAL SPIRITUAL UNION before the world began as that would make us EQUAL TO GOD as that is what Christ is SPIRITUALLY.
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    I ended my last segment on the Fact that there are two worlds in Gods view, a world that He loved and chose in Jesus Christ, and a world He hates and chose in the devil, and consequently, its a condemned world with no hope..Paul describes it here 1 Cor 11:32

    32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

    And a blessed world, whose sins were not laid to their account Jn 3:17

    17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    Jn 6:33

    33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    Its two worlds just as there are two Israels see Rom 9:6, for there was an elect Israel [ Israel of God] and national Israel [ of the flesh] and so there is a elect world and a condemned world that belongs to Satan and lies under his dominion and darkness, of which the Father delivers His own children from Col 1:13

    13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Now, is it reasonable to believe that God and Christ are rejoicing and delight over the reprobates, the seed of the serpent in Prov 8 :31

    But the Sons of men are the elect remnant, the Sons of Adam [ who was a son of God by creation lk 3:38] these were the men He was set up to be the Mediator of 1 Tim 2: 5..

    These men were in a eternal union with Him by election from the foundation of the world, they are wisdom's children..

    Matt 11:19

    The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
     
  9. billwald

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    >We are now "seated....in Christ" in heavenly places meaning we are REPRESENTED in his person before the Father.

    This definition clarifies "Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world?" God is "in" us "in" the same way that Satan is "in" everyone who is not us?
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
     
  11. billwald

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    I suppose my primary, maybe only gripe against Christian theology is the claim that Jesus/God loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved while claiming the null case is every person goes to hell. What kind of a god is that? A god that can't get what he wants in even 51% of the cases?

    We blame human teachers for kids who fail but God gets a free pass for the vast majority whom you all say go to Hell?
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    Who can deny that there was a Union between the First Adam and the living souls that generated from Him, that they exsited before their development and manifestation, and that that union is the cause of their being born into the natural world..If this be the case, how can it be denied that those of us who have a spiritual existence, owe it not to a previous existence and Union with the Second Adam who was made a quickening Spirit, causing us to be born of God, born of the Spirit, or born again not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever.
     
  13. Dr. Walter

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    Your position is not merely unbiblical but absurd. Think about it! Those physically born or generated from Adam are EQULAL IN NATURE to Adam and therefore the parallel in Christ by SPIRITUAL UNION would also be true that they are EQUAL IN NATURE and thus EQULAL IN NATURE to God by nature. However, Adam had a beginning as a CREATURE but those that would be in ETERNAL union with Christ could not be CREATURES as they would be ETERNAL as Christ. You are teaching a modified Polythesim.

    The true Biblical parallel between those in Adam versus those in Christ is not ETERNAL SPIRITUAL UNION but limited as CREATED beings where the analogy begins through BIRTH (Jn. 3:3-6). Adam was CREATED but Christ was not created (Jn. 1:1) but rather only participated in the human nature through BIRTH. Those "in Christ" must be "CREATED in Christ Jesus" by new birth (Eph. 2:1,5,8,10).

    The fact that "in Christ" occurs by being "CREATED" in Him denies your position of ETERNAL union "in Christ".

    The passages you would use to teach a PRE-existence "in Christ" only talk about a pre-existence in regard to PURPOSE not to reality or actuality and are fully explained by such passages as Romans 8:28-31.
     
    #13 Dr. Walter, Jul 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2011
  14. savedbymercy

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    dw:

    Its too bad God has hid this Truth from you. 1 Cor 2:14

    14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
  15. Dr. Walter

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    Is this the best response you are capable of making? You can't even deal with the Biblical evidence and the rational evidence placed before you??????

    I could have used the same text (1 Cor. 2:14) and applied it to you and just skipped any rational and Biblical response to your absurd and unbiblical position.

    When anyone has to stoop to this kind of response when faced with contrary Biblical evidence to their position you know their position is at best very weak and most likely wrong and therefore perversion of the Scriptures.

    Again the fact that Paul says one must be "CREATED in Christ Jesus" denies they were ETERNALLY UNITED to Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:10).
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    The Eternal Union of Christ and His the church [ His body], and the distinction between Adam and Christ are to be considered. Two types of distinct families existed in Adam and in Christ, one type being of the natural order and the other is spiritual or heavenly. Jesus Christ as the head of the church, His body per Col 1:18

    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Existed before Adam Col 1:17

    17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    However Adam was first in the order of manifestation in time. Adam is the head or father of all the natural or earthy family, and Jesus Christ is the Head or Father of a Spiritual Family [ see Isa 9:6 ]

    At the head of the church is Christ and at the Head of Christ is God [ 1 Cor 11:3] He Jesus Christ is a quickening spirit [ 1 Cor 15:45]..

    Now understand this , a family must always exist in a Progenitor or Father before their development or manifestation, and this is true with Adam and with Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ existed before time, before creation, for the creation was by Him Eph 3:9

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

    And He was one with the Father, as well as one with His people, His church in Him Heb 2:11

    11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    Gal 3:16

    16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    For in Him [ Jesus Christ] existed a incorruptible spiritual seed as He was the Son of God, and the Anti type to Adam who when He first existed had a natural seed in him as the Son of God [ lk 3 38]; and that incorruptible seed in Him [Jesus christ] was the life of the church Jn 1:4

    4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Before the world was, the Lord Jesus Christ had Glory with the Father [ Jn 17:5] and represented in Himself the elect or chosen children of God, prior to them becoming partakers of flesh and blood Heb 2:14 & Rom 9 :11.

    Note Paul writes , in Rom 9:11 the children, not, they will be children, but the children, even before they were born, thats because in the eternal purpose of God, things do not have to exist for Him [ God] to call them what they are in His Purpose Rom 4:17

    17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    This not saying that the elect literally in flesh and blood existed before creation, but that we were in Christ in a seminal fashion[chosen in Him], as we were in Adam at Creation..
     
  17. Dr. Walter

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    Again, the elect had to be "CREATED in Christ Jesus" and that occurred in time and space during their own life time (Eph. 2:8-10) at the point of regeneration (Eph. 2:1,5,8,10). Hence, there is no "seminal" preexistence of the elect in Christ. You have taken an analogy and stretched further than the Scriptures teach. You are teaching polytheism in "seminal" form.

    We were chosen "in him before the world began" ACCORDING TO GOD's PURPOSE OF ELECTION - no actual prexistence, only REPRESENTATIVE existence in God's purpose. Simply because God can call things AS THOUGH THEY BE does not make them be UNTIL God "creates" them in Christ.
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    dw

    The Elect were in Christ Jesus before the World Began. Eph 1:4 and 2 Tim 1:9

    Do you deny that Jesus Christ existed before the world began ? If He did, He had a seed in Him !

    If Christ Prexisted, His seed in Him did to.

    The elect preexsisted in Adam as well before they were born, you deny that as well correct ?

    You also deny that Levi preexisted in the Loins of Abraham correct ? Heb 7:10

    For he[Levi] was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
     
    #18 savedbymercy, Jul 31, 2011
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  19. Dr. Walter

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    You are one confused person. Adam was a PHYSICAL creature with PHYSICAL reproductive capability and the seed contained in his loins was PHYSICAL. Jesus Christ did not preexist the PHYSICAL incarnation in any kind of PHYSICAL capacity but existed as a SPIRIT without any kind of reproductive capability and therefore without any kind of "seed"! The elect had no substantive physical existence before the world began in any capacity except as an IDEA in God's mind and in this IDEA in God's mind the Second Person of the Trinity would represent them in a SUBSTITUTIONARY capacity - that was God's PLAN and outside that IDEA/PURPOSE they had no other kind of existence whatsoever.

    Do you know what the term "anthropomorphism" means? It is to attribute to a totally SPIRIT being human characteristics for the purpose for us to grasp/understand what that is from our own existence. God has no hands, no arms, no body, no feet just as he has no feathers (Psa. 91:4)because God, the entire Trinity prior to the incarnation of the Second Person of the Godhead was wholly a "SPIRIT."

    He had no "seed" in Him in seminal form or any other form because a SPIRIT is incapable of generation especially God as that "seed" concept is nothing but POLYTHEISM when literalized.

    The idea of "seed" and "Son" and "Father" are all anthropormorphic terms restricted to the EVERLASTING covenant of redemption in regard to, in relationship with the elect and creation. For example, the term "Father" is attributed to the Second Person of the Trinity in regard to eternity (Isa. 9:6).However, the Third Person of the Trinity is not given an anthropormorphic identity but merely called "The Holy Spirit" and is the true representative character of the entire nature of the trinue God as to the actual character of God.

    The new birth is not any kind of actual SPIRITUAL GENERATION but is anthropormorphic in nature as it is actually a CREATIVE act of God rather than a reproductive act of God. The anthropormorphic terms aid us in understanding that we have a new beginning and a change of nature wrought by the creative power of God as we are "CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" (Eph. 2:10). We are a "new creature" and "creation" as we are CREATED or renewed in the "image" of God (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; etc.).

    Christ did not prexist in any kind of HUMAN/PHYSICAL form and therefore neither did the elect preexist "in" Christ in any kind of HUMAN/PHYSICAL condition whether "seminal" or otherwise.

    The only preexistence the elect had "in" Christ before the world began was in the MIND of God as an preconceived IDEA of representation in the redemptive convenant God purposed before the world began - that is all!!!

    In time that IDEA/PURPOSE/PLAN was actualized in time and space and became substantive.



     
  20. savedbymercy

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    dw:

    It appears to me you just cannot receive these Truthes, I by the grace of God have laid them out for you, and you deny them.
     
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