Eternally Secure

Yes, this is what James is talking about here (James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.) We have that choice to resist the devil. But, if we don't resist the devil and sin that does not mean we lose our salvation, we lose our fellowship with God until we confess and ask for forgiveness.

I wished this was true. Do you lose your temper, maybe while driving? Do you obey the speed limits daily?

 

Yes, this is what James is talking about here (James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.) We have that choice to resist the devil. But, if we don't resist the devil and sin that does not mean we lose our salvation, we lose our fellowship with God until we confess and ask for forgiveness.

I wished this was true. Do you lose your temper, maybe while driving? Do you obey the speed limits daily? </font>[/QUOTE]HomeBound,
it is like I said above. I realize the difficulty in your accepting what I said, but what i said is what the bible teaches.
We all do not sin daily. If a person lives in sin they are lost. Confession is not an out to sin, but rather a result of the penitent sinner. There is no middle ground. And no I do not blow my stack on the way home. Our actions are the result of our heart, not how someone drives and yes I obey the speed limits.

 

So do you believe that if and when you sin you lose your salvation?

 

I've asked before, i've never, ever gotten
a simple "plan of being un-born-again".

 

1 John 2:19 - "They WENT OUT FROM us, but they notof us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt HAVE CONTINUED WITH US: BUT THEY WENT OUT, that they might be made manifest that they were NOT all of us."

John tells us, they were with his group IN THE FIRST PLACE, they left his group, and they were NO LONGER with his group, means they were no longer belong to God's. They became lost.

Notice, the three epistles of John before he wrote Revelation, there are many "IF's in his three epistles. Obivous, he teaches and conditional living, and conditional salvation.

1 John 1:6 - "IF we say that we have fellowship with him, (BUT) walk in DARKENESS, we LIE, do NOT the truth:"

Too many Christians are hyprocisy in America, many claim, they fellowship with Christ, but they walk in their own wicked ways. They are not in Christ's.


1 John 1:7 - "But IF we WALK in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

It tells us, IF we faithfully walk in the light - godly life, Christ's blood keep cleansing all our sins. OR........ IF we stay walk in the dark, the blood of Christ would NOT cleansing us.

1 John 1:8 - "IFwe say that we have NO sin, we deceive ourselves, and the TRUTH is NOT in us."

It tells us, many Christians who saying, have no sin, they are deceived. Means they are hyprocrite like as Pharisees! Christians think they holy and better than them. They are hyprocrite everywhere.

1 John 1:9 - "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteosuness."

It tells us, IF we confess our sins to Christ, THEN, He will sure forgive our sins faithfully. OR....... if we do NOT confess our sins to Christ, Then, Christ will NOT forgive our sins!

Anone who did not confess their sins to God, and remain in sin throughout their life, will remain as lost toward to hell without repentance.

1 John 1:10 - "IF we say that we have NOT sinned, we make him a LIAR, and his word is NOT in us."

Anyone who saying, never sinned, make God a liar, and He is not in them.

1 John 1:6-10 is very obivous talk about our conditional life and salvation.

Often, OSAS people use 1 John 5:13 to prove security salvation. Use, word, "Know" is assurance salvation, often as IFB use 1 John 5:13 on the doctrine of salvation. They teaching that, we should not be doubt about our salvation. We can sure and know of our salvation, that we cannot lose salvation.

Ok, stop and think.... look at important word, 'believe'.

It promises us, that we can know Christ that we have eternal life as we believe upon Christ.

OR...... IF any person stopped believing in Christ will be doubt and lose eternal life.

Romans 11:19-22 tell us, God COULD removed us from the branch because of our UNBELIEF.

Notice John 3:16 tells us, it promise us, whosever believING upon Christ, shall never go to hell, but have eternal life. It does NOT saying 'believED'. It says, 'believING' of Greek translation (Textus Receptus).

Believing means keep on believing throughout our life while we are still security of salvation. OR..... if we stopped believing, we might be removed - John 15:6, Romans 11:19-22.

Now back to 1 John 5:13. Notice word, 'KNOW'.

Know means, that we have a good relationship with Jesus Christ in our life, if we walk with Him faithfully, so, we have eternal life. OR.. if we do not know him, means lack of relationship with Him like as not enough pray, not enough reading Bible, not enough having devotional life with Christ, or stopped fellowship with Christ, then we might removed as cut off because of our unbelief.

1 John 2:3 - "And hereby we do know that we know him, IF IF IF we KEEEEEEEP his commandments."

See? 1 John 5:13 does not prove the teaching of unconditional salvation. Notice word, 'know' means have good relationship with Christ.

As what 1 John 2:3 tells us, 'that we KNOW him, IF IF IF IF we KEEEEEEEEEEP his commandments.

Too many Christians saying, "I know who Jesus is" "I know who Jesus is", but they do NOT keep his commandment.

Please look at serious warning passage - Rev. 14:9-12, notice verse 12 says, "Here is the patience of the saints here are they that KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP the commandments of God, and the FAITH of Jesus."

If we do not keep the commandment of God, even, if we disobey God's word warning us about worship the Antichrist and receive the mark of the beast, we would be END UP IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!!!!

1 John 2:5 "But whoso KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPETH his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected hereby KNOW we that we are in him."

It promises us, anyone who KEEEEEEEEEEEEP His word, truly, a person is the love of God COMPLETELY or become mature so, a person KNOW that he/she is IN Christ.

OR.... of any person do not keep His word, then a person is not love in God, and do not growing mature(spiritual life) relationship with Christ, that mean a person is NOT belong to Christ's.

Huh?

1 John 2:6 - "He that saith he ABIDETH in Him OUGHT OUGHT(MUST) hismelf also so to walkkkkkk, even as he walked."

It tells us, we must be abide in Christ faithfully while we walking with the Lord faithfully in our life.

OR... if we do not walk with Christ, he migh removed us away - John 15:1-6.

Notice. 1 John 1:7 tells us, that there is no difference of salvation between Old Testament and New Testament, the same as O.T. saints KEPT the commandments, AS we KEEEEEEEEP the commandments! God's plan of salvation nothing chnage since creation to the end of the age.

I do NOT HAVE TO type whole verses of 1,2,3 John epistles in this post. You have to read whole of 1,2,3, epistles of John. These are so overwhelm facts talking about conditional life and conditional salvation.

Prove that the Bible does not teaching of unconditional salvation. It have lot of evidences talk about conditional salvation.


I consider, OSAS doctrine is a dangerous among Christians in America.

We ought stick with God's Word, and follow what God's word saying instead follow men's teachings - Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

you have to read psalms 119 about david's testimony one of longest chapter in the bible.

david's emphais on testimonies and commandments.

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

I may be wrong, but I don't think David was the psalmist of Psalms 119.

 

Let us not forget the prodigal son. He never was disowned by his father, though the son thought the father probably did. Praise God that our heavenly Father will never disown one of his own. That fellowship may not be there during a period of time, but he will never forsake us.(Hebrews 13:5b)

 

Look at the pictures of the blessed salvation
Jesus provides:

1 Eternal Salvation (no temporary Salvation taught)
2. Born-again (no un-born-again)
3. redemption (bought back from slavery, again no un-redemption)
4. member of the body of Christ (no scripture on how to
----remove zits from the Christ)
5. the Bride of Christ (no divorce taught)

There are others i'm sure, but i need to run off to work.

 

HomeBound,
you could have possibily have read my postsa and ask that question. Christians do sin from time to time. However they do not make it a practice in their lifestyle. True believers cannot practice sin as you said you did. To stay saved one has to first be saved and once that happenes they never return to practice sin.

This is what I believe.
9Whoever has been born of God does not (practice)sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot (practice)sin, because he has been born of God.

 

HomeBound
the prodigal son was lost. Read the text. It says he was lost! He was not saved when he left home. He returned to get saved.

 

freeatlast,

You are partially correct about prodigal son of Luke 15:11-32.

Remember, you have to read whole context of Luke chapter 15. Christ tells us, the three parables.

First, the parable about a shepherd owns 100 sheep. Shepherd counts them all to enter the gate, make sure NOT miss one. Bu, he realizes, he MISS one sheep, that mean sheep became lost. THis sheep was belong to shepherd's in the FIRST PLACE. So.... the shepherd would HAVE TO look for the lost sheep. Then, finally find a lost sheep, shepherd becomes rejoice bring sheep home. Shepherd apply pastors, not only pastors, also, deacons, matured Christians who are responsible to disciple baby Christians. Many pastors and matured Christians failed to discipline baby Christians to growing in the Lord. They allow them draw away into lost. They allow them become lst on the way to hell daily. - Luke 15:4-7.

Christ tells the second parable about a woman OWNS 10 pieces of silver. One day, she decides want go to store to buy something, so, she needs 10 pieces of silver, but she realizes, one piece of silver is MISSING. So, she would HAVE TO look for a lost piece anywhere in her place. She then finally find lost piece of silver, she rejoices.

Same as parent have a daughter, parent called daughter's name somewhere in their house. But, they realize daughter does hear them, clear she might be lose. SO.... they looking for their daughter everywhere in their house. they can't find her. So, they call Police, to looking for their daughter. Also, they call their friends as neighbor, nedd their help to look for daughter. So, Police, and neighbors are looking for parent's daughter. Then, later, Police finally find a lost daughter. Police become rejoice, bring girl home. Parent become relief and very excite to see their daughter, then parent called to all their friends - neighbor, tell them good news that their daughter is found. All friends are REJOICE same time, same with Luke 15:6,7, 9, 10.

Luke 15:7 tells us, the 99 JUST persons need no repentence, because they already right with the Lord and remain faithful, but one sinner REPENTETH, that why they happy to see one person get right with the Lord again. Same with Luke 15:10.

Now, I am discuss on Luke 15:11-32 - third parable, Christ talked on it. Christ says, father owns TWO SONS at the FIRST PLACE. One day, a son decides want to leave his father's house go on his own ways. Prove that God does not make us robot. Bible teaches us, that we all have freewill choices, obivously conflict with calvinism. Calvinism do not believe in freewill.

A son asks his Dad for the will or money, so, Dad give the will or money to his son, Dad LETS his son GO. Same with God LETS person go in their own freewill choice. Dad can't force his son to stay with him at home. Same with God can't force a person to be remain and abide in him all the time. God allows person go in their own way.

Son goes in his own way, and spend all money with fun and pleaseant with friends good time. Then later, he realizes, that he miserys and depress, that his own self way is already out of control and LOST. He realizes, that he HAVE TO repent and return back to his father - LUke 15:17-19. SO, son detrmines return back to his Dad's home- Luke 15:20. That is his freewill decision. God does not make us robot without any decision. God allows us to make decision same with Joshua 24:15. LUke 15:11-32 conflicts with calvinism doctrine. Calvinism do not believe in freewill.

While son walks toward his Dad's home. Dad sees his son walking home toward his house, does Dad still disappoint with his son. And Dad refuses let his son return because of rebellion. Dad would saying to his son, "NO! I don't want you come to my house ever again!" Does God doing that? NO. Dad IMMEDIATELY RUN toward his son, and HUGE him - Luke 15:20. Christ is ALWAYS READY to forgive us anytime 24 hours - 1 John 1:9.

Son says to his Dad, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am NO MORE worthy to be called thy son." - Luke 15:21.

Dad quickly forgive his son's sins, son receive blessing again and restore again - Luke 15:22-23.

Dad says, "For this MY son WAS DEAD and is ALIVE AGAIN. LOOOOOOK! It says, alive AGAIN. Word, means 'AGAIN', obivously, Dad already own TWO sons at the FIRST PLACE. Dad continues, "He WAS LOST, and is FOUND." Obivously, when a person forsakes God, person ALREADY lost - period.

When ad's another older son return to Dad's house, he becomes puzzle, and want to know what's up, and going on there with noise and many people around his home. So, he asks one of the servant, what's up, going on? Servant tells him, his brother has return home. THen, he become very upset and obsses on his brother. He says, "Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither do any wrong things at any time, obey Dad's commandement, yet you not give me any honor with blessing."- Luke 15:29 Obivously, brother is very jealous of his younger brother, seem, that his younger broher more special than him. So, his Dad urges his older brother to meet his younger brother, and he says to elder son, "for this THY BROTHER WAS DEAD, and ALIVE AGAIN; and WAS LOST, and is FOUND."

Christ tells us, very clear, Dad already owns two sons in the FIRST PLACE. Son decides want leave his father, go on his own way. Same with God allows person go on their own way - freewill decisoon. God does not make us robot. Calvinism do not believe in freewill. Also, Christ tells us, God does not force person to be remain stay in his place all the time like as robot. God allows person go in own decision, become lost.

Often OSAS pastors use John 10:28-29 to prove that NO one person can lose salvation, because God have power to secure our salvation all time - security salvation. I love John 10:28-29 is wonderful promise for us. BUT, OSAS pastors not really emphasis on John 10:27 - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they folllllllllllow me:"

Christ tells us, we have eternal life IF IF we follow Him.

Many Christians sing the popular song - "I decide to follow, no turn back". Often, Christians saying, "I follow Chirst", but many of them are not follow Christ faithful. Many of them turn away from the Lord. Same with God looses person out of his hand, let person go and lost. Same with the parable of the prodigal son, God allows person go in own way become lost again.

The mainly key word on the context of Luke chapter 15, that Christ emphasis is REPENTANCE.

If suppose the prodigal son decides want stay in his own way, and remain in lost all the way through his life without repent, he might be remain always lost TILL death, then go to hell remain lost!

2 Peter 3:9 tells us, God is longsuffering toward all people, that He does NOT want them go to perish, but want ALLLLLLL people come to REPENTANCE

Is the prodigal son - lost on the way to hell? Yes, Christ said, "For the Son of man is come to SEEK and to SAVE that which was LOST." - Luke 19:10.

Does that mean, Christ is not omniscience whole on earth, that he not know which person is saved or not saved? No. He making point that he came to earth to seek person who become lost, he would HAVE TO find lost person, to save person from lost. Same with Luke 15:4-7. Chist's example that our responsible to bring lost people to Christ through REPENT.

One more verse - Christ said, "I came NOT to call the righteous, but sinners to REPENTANCE." - Luke 5:32, also read Matt. 9:13 and Mark 2:17 too.

Often in the Bible emphasis us, repent, repent, repent, repent. Why? God is holy. 1 Peter 1:15-16 commands us that we BE HOLY, because God is holy. We ought obey his commandment. If we disobey him, then God disown us.

Bible is very clear teaching that we have conditional salvation, not unconditional salvation ,and security salvation too.

Bible commands us to obey His commandments all the time, of we disobey his commandments, and stopped believing in Him, He might removed us from salvation - John 15:6, Romans 11:19-23.

If suppose a person heard the gospel and believed with receive the gospel, and did actually repent of sins, person did walk with God, but for a WHILE, then turn away, forsake God, already become lost, IF person never repent of sins after that till death, person remain lost while in hell. Bible commands us, we ought to repent our sins to God, because God is holy.

Bible is very clear teaching us we could lose salvation IF we do not repent our sins, also, IF we worship the Antichrist, receive the mark of the beast, will go to lake of fore - period! - Rev. 13:9-18 and Rev. 14:9-12.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

The story of the prodigal son is not to teach salvation. Come on folks. Let us try to work some theology into our position.

The point of the parable was to show:

1. The love of the father
2. Two slaves of sin - one to hedonism, one to legalism

Both are wrong, but the father still loves them.

When you start working salvation into this, you could go a hundred different directions.

 

So when you get saved, you never sin again?

 

The prodigal son was the father's son and the father can not deny his own son. When the son left his father's house, the son left, not the father.

Jesus is our Father when we get saved. The Father can not deny his own son. If you, the son of God leave the Father's house, the Father will never forsake you, even though you might feel that way. Jesus will always be your Father, because he gave us birth.

 

So when you get saved, you never sin again? </font>[/QUOTE]HomeBound,
I want to thank you for the oppertunity to converse with you on this issue, but i think I will now bow out with you in this discussion. I have a rule where when I make my position clear and someone twists what I say I just end the conversation. So God bless and I hope we can in some future time talk about the things of the Lord.

 

Homebound:

Forgive me for butting in, but what Freeatlast is saying is that the child of God does not make sin a practice , as in a way of life, a habit, something he cannot do without.

He can sin, he will still sin, but sin is not really attractive to him.

 

by Free at last to Homebound:

Freeatlast:

the prodigal was a son already. He came back to his father, his father waited and longed for his son, rejoiced when his son came home. the prodigal was part and always have been a part of the household wherever he went and however miserable he became.

 

To Free at last:

Sorry, I hit the enter tab-enter by mistake. As I was saying, in God and man relationship, an unsaved is not a son. He is a creation of God, but he is not God's son.
Only when he is regenerated does he become a son of God and a member of the family of God, and of his kingdom.
So, this prodigal son was a picture of a saved person, a sheep, who left the corral, and came back.

 

Yes, it does matter. The Context of Luke chapter 15 emphasis on repent. Repent is part of salvation issue. Luke 15:4-7 does discuss on salvation, that the shepherd(pastor, or matured Christians) HAVE TO seek the lost sheep. If suppose shepherd lets a sheep go, and become lost, not want to seek to find a lost sheep. A lost sheep would remain always lost till death, period.

Luke 15:8-10 tells us about a woman with ten pieces of silvers, she owns all ten peices of silver with her at the first place. One day, she decides go to the store. So, she needs ten pieces of silver for shopping. But, she realizes one piece of silver is missing. She would have to seek the missing silver. Woman applys to us as, we are responsible to witness gospel to lost people, and discipline baby Christians .

Luke 15:11-32 is a matter of salvation discuss. Father owns his two sons at the first place. That means, the prodigal son was living with Dad - saved at the first place.

One day, son decides want to leave father in his own way. Father does not force him to stay here. He lets son go. Same with God, He allows us go astray whatsoever we want. God cannot controls us like as robot. When a son leave his father, he become LOST. Later, son realizes, his way is very misery. He decides to repent of his sins, and turn around toward his Father, that is repent, include salvation issue. When son returns to his home, he was lost, now he is found, he was dead, now he is alive.

Yes, Luke chapter 15 is a matter about salvation doctrine.

You are partially correct. Yes God still loves us while we are sinners - Romans 5:8. God commands us to repent. God is long suffering toward us, that he does not want us go perish, but all come to repentance - 2 Peter 3:9.

God cannot control us like as robot. God gaves us the choice with freewill decisions. If we still faithful and abide in Christ, Christ's hand still hold us - secure salvation - John 10:28, Unless, if we do not follow Christ, then Christ's hand would loose us out, and become lose. - John 10:27.

The mostly important word anywhere in the Bible emphasis is REPENTANCE.

If we become astray away again, and stopped repenting, and stopped believing, God might cut us off - John 15:6, Romans 11:19-23.

You mentioned about Jesus left Father in heaven go to earth apply to the prodigal son. Actually, you off the point. Jesus is NOT apply to prodigal son. Of course, father applyt God, the Father, yes, God always love His Son, same as God loves us.

Jesus never sinned against His Father. He is sinless. Christ left heaven, because of his OBEDIENCE to His Father.

The prodigal son rebels against his father, he wants go in his own way, not same as what Christ does to His father.

Bible teaches us, that we all have freewill decisions. We are not God's robot.

If suppose, the prodigal son never repent again, and remain in dark, he remains always LOST all the way to death - period.

Repent is very important. If we stopped repent to God, and continue in sinning, we become lost, and we are not in Christ. That why, Bible commands us, we ought to repent and confess our sins to Christ faithfully.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!