Euthanasia is alive and well in America

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Soulman, Jan 16, 2005.

  1. Soulman

    Soulman
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    I work in a hospital and have seen human beings put down by withholding food and water as well as over drugging them.

    The withholding of food and water usually occurs when a person has a stroke or something and will not recover in what we consider a good quality of life. The family is then encouraged to make decisions.

    Over drugging usually occurs with terminal cancer patients where the family requests "comfort measures". This means that ever increasing doses of morphine and other pain meds are given until you overdose.

    I understand that these people are terminal or may not enjoy a quality of life that they have been used to. But!! It is not up to man or families to decide the quality of life. If a person decides that extrordinary measures should not be taken to keep them alive (CPR or life support) then that is their decision. Withholding food and water and overdosing is JUST PLAIN MURDER!!
     
  2. Deacon

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    I can't judge what you have seen, you've seen it!

    But I'm not sure I can totally agree in all cases.

    When it comes to caring for terminally ill individuals, just because we can do something doesn't necessarily mean that we should do something. There is a fine line between extending life and prolonging death.

    Many times these patients are given hydration (IV fluids) if they are unable to take things by mouth. Other nurishment can usually be withheld for quite a while without great harm.

    As for using narcotics in cancer patients; it is often a choise between extreme pain or over-sedation.

    Death is rarely "comfortable". If I can be made more comfortable during the process, please, err on the side of over-sedation

    Rob
     
  3. Artimaeus

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    I agree with Deacon. If a doctor is confident that 50 to 100 drops of morphine will kill me, then he can administer up to 49 drops without concern. At drop number 50, he begins to be concerned that it might kill me. But, his objective is still pain control. He can continue to administer "one more drop" in an effort to control the pain. If drop 89 is the one that will kill me, but, I don't know that, and neither does the doctor, and he administers drop 89, he is not guilty of murder and I am not guilty of suicide. Who knows whether drop 88, might be the one that is sufficient to relieve the pain.
     
  4. don 3426

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    Thats totaly wrong! Humans are not to attempt to kill a patient even if they will die painfully or soon. If they are still alive then God has them alive for a purpose. if an iv is just another way to give food it doesent meen doctors are extending death they are just doing the natural thing people do to stay nurished. resesitaion is used in car accidents drownings and many others If u decide feeding someone with liquide so they can live as extending death then i guess all those who have had their heart stop and restarted should be dead. That probly what you didnt mean but thats what you are saying. If we take the life of a terminal cancer patient who may die a week later its like telling God that we will decide when the person will die and not God. God could use that person within that last week.
    Euthanasia is very dangerous because ther have been cases were that person wishing for assisted suicide did not give compliet permision to the doctor. In onother country people must carry a card around to enshure that if they are in the hospital the doctor wont kill them. I personally do not want to live that way.
     
  5. dianetavegia

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    I agree with Deacon, who is an R.N. and would want pain control. Medicines can be given so that the amount of pain is bearable and the patient can spend a few last days 'with' family. One of the newest studies is using some 'illegal party drug' to relieve fear and depression in the last days of life. I can't remember the name of it tho.

    I worked in a hosptial for a number of years and remember Fred F. He was a young Christian father with non Hodkins Lymphoma. He was screaming out in pain for weeks before he died. I actually prayed for his death (I'd overheard he and his wife praying for his death) and was so relieved when I found his bed empty one morning.
     
  6. don 3426

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    See the God had a reason for him to live a bit longer maby to show his wife or encurage her that prayer is more effective. I knew someone who had a son with sever mental handecapts and pain later in his life but they did not put him down like a dog. he stayed alive to lead his mother brother and father to christ. So you can vote to kill off all of Gods plans but i will have no part in that sin.
     
  7. Deacon

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    We may be talking about different things, Don.

    There are times when a patient or family members express the wish that ALL medical procedures be performed in order to keep the person alive. It's sad.

    As more and more extreme measures are taken, the body eventually begins to break down in more subtile ways. The person dies in bits and pieces, WORSE than a dog.

    I personally have not seen physicians intentionally "put someone down like a dog".
    Our responsibility is to choose the right doctor; one that we can trust with tough decisions during these times AND realize that they are not God.

    I can't change God's plans, neither can they. We can do our best and pray that God will lead all of us into the path that seems right.
    God can work through all circumstances...

    “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. So therefore, do not be afraid..." Joseph in Genesis 50:20f NAS

    Rob
     
  8. AVL1984

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    I know when my father was dying of cancer, the doctors kept increasing his morph levels and I believe it was one of the best things they could have done. When he was near the end of his life, he was in increasing pain, and they upped the meds to ease that pain. Our family would have rather had him out of pain as much as possible than to have him miserable. He lived for three long years, two years longer than the doctors told him he had, because he was a strong person with a strong will to live. But, when that will subsides because of pain, it is best to let the person go. I know his meds were increases several times in the last month of his life, and he went fairly peacefully.
    The same occured with my wife's aunt who died from bone cancer late last year. I agree with Deacon.
     
  9. blackbird

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    My mom signed(in the presence of her children and doctor) a DNR request.

    She went into the hospital in April of 2002 and before we knew it---she had stepped "beyond the blue" into the Land that outshines the sun!! It happened so quick---but I know it doesn't always happen like that!!

    My heart goes out to families whos loved ones "linger" with seemingly no answers!
     
  10. Servent

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    Ive been through nursing homes before and seen people laying in bed being feed through tubes they cant move they cant even roll over by themselfs, that's not for me someone please end it. TMO
     
  11. blackbird

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    Servent---I know what you mean but hear this--think about this

    During WW2---Hitler needed "space" for wounded soldiers and made a decision---mysteriously---elderly Germans in Nursing Homes began to disappear!
     
  12. dianetavegia

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    Don, I'm afraid you misunderstood my post. I believe in pain relief but certainly not taking a life with medicines or withholding basic nourishment. If someone cannot survive without a breathing machine, then we're playing God, but to refuse medicines or food and water is wrong.

    I prayed for this man to die because of his extreme pain. Nurses would sob outside his door. His wife spent hours on her knees calling out to God to stop the pain and take him home. She loved him so much, she was willing to lose him just to stop his hurting. His children couldn't come see him anymore because of the pain and screaming. It was the most powerful thing I've ever seen and it's been over 30 years. I can still see him in his bed and his wife on her knees crying out to God.

    Our preacher sometimes says he can't understand why people know where they're going when they die but fight like anything to keep from dying. I've known a number of very ill or elderly who couldn't understand that God could still use them in their 'situations'. You've very right tho. Who can know the mind of God? Good point.
     
  13. donnA

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    My grandmother was ona ventalator for 5 months, they couldn't get her off, her body had forgotten how to breath after open heart surgery. She was in pain, had temps over 100, 3 types of staph infections they could not get rid of, what she went through was hororable. When her heart stopped they brought her back and called us, we all went to her in Louisville (almost 100 miles away) by the time we left my mom had left a DRN and we all said good bye. By this point they had to keep her sedated, she was unconcious.
    We didn't go back on Satruday, our usual visiting day, we had all said goodbye already, that night she died. I prayed for months she would die so she didn't have to contimue suffering.
    A DNR was the last act of love my mom could give to her mother. I would do the same for her if I had too.
     
  14. don 3426

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    Your right it starts to become blured because this message started with euthanisai which is different than discontinuing extreme prosedures to keep somone alive for as long as posible.
    Diane
    I was responding to your post as well as previous ones talking about depriving food to discontinue life. If the post went to a different subject i was still responding to the origonal one. But things such as whn somone is in critical condition and machines are the onlything that will keep them alive, when in reality it will just keep them in a sort of a coma then i believe if the plug was pulled or the medicine were to stop to let the person go qwickly than thats not euthanasia. It is just the fact if the person will live serval days ofter the food is taken away or if the person will live several days longer if they were not given increased medicne then that is wrong to kill them because God will naturally take them when he feels. Im sorry if the message seemed like it was attacking you diane i was using your prayer story as an example of how God can still use somone in pain.
    Deacon
    "Many times these patients are given hydration (IV fluids) if they are unable to take things by mouth. Other nurishment can usually be withheld for quite a while without great harm."

    I dont know what you ment by that but it seemed like starvation to me if the person can live for qwite a wile before they die of starvation. That is what euthanasia laws are agianst. If what that message seems to sang isnt what you ment please explain.

    I am not angry or hatefull of anyone after i post. that seems to be a misunderstanding in another topic. I just post passionatly but i do not go in or come out of posting hating you unless i am personally insult. (I am not saying anyone has insulted me im just trying to get an understanding so people are not offended if they think i post in anger.)
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    Euthanasia will become more prevalent as our teetering social security system "demands" that long-term, expensive care for the terminal be rethought in order to save money.

    Bottom line: America has more respect for money than for people. Abortion is a HUGELY profitable business. Infanticide and euthanasia will also be promoted for the god of mammon.
     
  16. Deacon

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    Some final thoughts:

    Medicine is a numbers game; physician’s deal with probabilities. The question they ask about each test or treatment is, “What is the risk/benefit ratio?” or in other words, “Is the risk to the patient worth the benefits to the patient?”
    When dealing with the terminally ill, the risk/benefit ratio is quite high.

    Tube feeding and intravenous feeding of terminally ill, comatose individuals is not without risks to the patient.
    Sepsis, hemorrhage, aspiration (to name but a few) kill much faster than fasting.
    In compromised patients, the physician has to make a choice and determine if the benefits of feeding the patient are worth the risks.

    Fluids are needed for life. Withhold hydration and a person will die within a few days. In my experience, the withholding of fluids is not done without a reason: to hasten death is not an appropriate reason.

    In the past decade the administration of intravenous narcotics has become very sophisticated. Intravenous delivery systems (pumps) that are responsive to the patients perceived level of pain are common.
    The risk of accidental over-dosage is minimized.
    The close monitoring of a patients vital signs become important in determining appropriate levels of the drugs. When breathing significantly slows or blood pressure falls below a certain level, the sedation may be too much. But even this is only a clue.

    What scares me most here is Servants response:
    That would be murder. Euthanasia is just another term for murder.

    I’ve been responding to the Opening Post. I personally do not think that what is being observed there is euthanasia. If it is then there are some serious problems at that institution and prosecution of the staff and removal the operating license of the hospital is in order. I would tread lightly with your charge. Ask thoughtful questions to responsible people and try to learn the reasons why you see what you do.

    As for Dr. Bob’s post: I expressed the same thoughts 20 years ago when talking to a nurse that promoted abortion. Political obtuseness, a pathetic financial state of the Social Security System, the over-extension of the medical system may eventually lead to a society that accepts euthanasia.

    Rob
     
  17. UTEOTW

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    I read about this the other day. The name of the drug is Ecstasy or "X" or MMDA. Here is one article on the subject. It is not as informative as the other I wrote but Google might could find something better. I believe there is one company that is legally entitled to manufacture the drug for medical use in this country.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27716-2004Dec26.html

    As far as the OP goes, you should not set out to kill someone. We are not in the position of taking lives. However, if I am the one on my deathbed in great pain, please search for the dose of pain relieve sufficient to ease my pain. If you come to the dose that kills me before you come to the dose that comforts me, that is a risk I can take if I am already at the point of death.
     
  18. Soulman

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    Deacon,
    Nurse in a hospital? You are really going to try and tell me that euthanasia is not happening? If so, you are working in a rare facility.

    No matter how you cut it, when you are intentionally witholding food and water and call it comfort measures. I have had nurses tell me that this is what they are doing.

    Spin pain control around as well. Many terminally ill alzheimers patients will show up and be fine physically. A week later they are on "COMFORT MEASURES" because it is too painful for the family to endure.

    I am telling you that it is happening in this country. It is only called other things and kept quiet.
     
  19. Soulman

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    It is terrible that so many people have to suffer at deaths door. We are men and women not gods. Just because we find the technology to get closer to being little gods doesn't mean we should excercise those options
     
  20. IveyLeaguer

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    There is absolutely no excuse for any terminally ill patient to suffer in this day and age. Simply inexcusable. Yet just weeks ago the wife of a friend of mine who had suffered from bone cancer some 9 years, went into hospice and experienced terrible pain the last 4 days of her life. ABSOLUTELY INEXCUSABLE. The health care system in this country has become, in the past 30 years, as sick as the professed church of Jesus Christ. And that's VERY sick.
     

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