Evaluating the Rules of "Best" Text

Dr. Bob, I agreed with your point about names and titles. This type of addition does not necessarily support the general notion that additions are more likely than deletions in the more unique cases.

BTW, I am not endorsing the opposite of this rule. Each case is unique and in my view does not fit under any static rule of probability.

This rule is sort of like the "missing link". Something that cannot be proven independently but is assumed to be true because it fills a void.

 

Most rationalists said that oftenly because they demanded the evidences such as an example of textual criticism on Mark 16:9-20. If your faith is logical, you said Psalm 12:6-7 referral not to the Words, but to people. That is your human reasoning. If you believe God preserved His Words, you must believe Psalm 12:6-7 referral to the words.

Rationalist is a person who chooses to trust the product of the reasoning of human mind to come to spiritual or intellectual conclusions.

Logic is 1. correct reasoning; sound thinking 2. the study of the rules of correct reasoning and of PROOF by reasoning.

logical is 1. based on logic 2. using correct reasoning.

Faith is belief or trust that does not question or ask for PROOF.

 

Askjo said "If you believe God preserved His Words, you must believe Psalm 12:6-7 referral to the words."

This is not true. I believe God preserved his words, yet I don't believe Psalm 12:6-7, John 3:16, or Genesis 1:1 refers to this.

Askjo said "Rationalist is a person who chooses to trust the product of the reasoning of human mind to come to spiritual or intellectual conclusions."

So how did you come to the conclusion about anything?

Isa 1:18a "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD"

 

Most rationalists said that oftenly because they demanded the evidences such as an example of textual criticism on Mark 16:9-20. If your faith is logical, you said Psalm 12:6-7 referral not to the Words, but to people. That is your human reasoning. If you believe God preserved His Words, you must believe Psalm 12:6-7 referral to the words.

Rationalist is a person who chooses to trust the product of the reasoning of human mind to come to spiritual or intellectual conclusions.

Logic is 1. correct reasoning; sound thinking 2. the study of the rules of correct reasoning and of PROOF by reasoning.

logical is 1. based on logic 2. using correct reasoning.

Faith is belief or trust that does not question or ask for PROOF. </font>[/QUOTE]Interesting concept - asking for proof from the Word of God makes me a rationalist.

 

1 Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

Dr. Bob just illustrated one of the problems with the MV'ers. In an effort to prove the superiority of reason over faith, he quotes from the KJV because it has the translation that fits his argument. This is what Rick Warren does so often. Use 18 different versions because you have to find one that says what you want it to say.

"But without faith, it is impossible to please Him." God is pleased when I trust Him, not when I have Him figured out.

 

PastorGreg said "In an effort to prove the superiority of reason over faith,"

Who said anything about superiority?

PastorGreg said "Use 18 different versions because you have to find one that says what you want it to say."

If that's why you think we use multiple versions for, you do not understand.

PastorGreg said "But without faith, it is impossible to please Him"

True. But we're not to have faith in whatever we can imagine, but only those things scripture exhorts us to. Scripture never exhorts faith in onlyism.

 

Neither does Scripture support faith in a man-made list of rules to determine what God really said because we don't believe He was capable of preserving His Word.

 

PastorGreg said ""But without faith, it is impossible to please Him." God is pleased when I trust Him, not when I have Him figured out."

So why have some "figured out" that the KJV is the only way God preserved his word? I have faith that God preserved his word in a range of translations despite their differences. My faith is in contradiction to the onlyist's faith. Which faith is the correct faith to have, and how can you know?

 

PastorGreg said "because we don't believe He was capable of preserving His Word."

Nobody here believes this. Do you not even understand the position you are arguing against?

 

I do not think you understand the meaning of this verse.

 

Askjo said "I do not think you understand the meaning of this verse."

What??? You're using your reasoning abilities to determine what this verse means??? I have faith I am right, while you are just a rationalist.

 

I do not think you understand the meaning of this verse. </font>[/QUOTE]What does it mean?

 

WOW! You do not believe that? You do not believe God preserved His Words of Psalm 12:6-7, John 3:16 and Genesis 1:1. Shame on YOU!

 

That's right, logic is human reasoning, but for the regenerate man, faith is a logical faith, not an irrational faith.

I have posted the reasons already. Dr. Bob and others have given numerous Scriptures.

In order to have faith we must know some things about God. We must know what God says. These require a MIND. The mind reasons. I can not have faith without some kind of knowledge. If that knowledge is not reasonable or logical, it can't truly be from God. Why? Because if logic exists, it can only exist in God as a perfect logic. The Creator can not put in His creation what He does not Himself possess. This is axiomatic. I reason logically. While I might not reason perfectly, I know that, because I am able to reason and use logic, then my Creator must be purely logical. I know this through faith which comes to me because of what I know about God and about myself. My faith rests in God, because my knowledge about God is reasonable. Where my faith lacks, my reason informs and bolsters my faith. Where my reason lacks, my faith supports and assures.



Those that would dismiss logic as human reasoning, clearly are on shaky ground.

Human logic can be wrong. Elephants are pink. Nelly is an elephant. Elephants are pink. Problem, there is no such thing as a pink elephant. I have logically reasoned from a false premise.

I can arrive at the same conclusion with the same propositions using "faith."

Faith is only as good as the object of faith. If the object is God, then we must ask ourselves if the propositions on which we say we have faith in God are, indeed rational, because we reason, and because we reason and we know God reasons, we must conclude, based on both faith and logic that God is a God of perfect reason. Just because you use faith, that does not mean you are always right. If faith is irrational, it is only because your logic is faulty. If your faith is rational, your logic can still be right, but your faith can still be wrong, e.g. misplaced. The issue therefore is the object of your faith.

No KJVOnlyist can reason from Scripture or scholarship correctly. They're "faith" can not be in God, because they assume the truth of their own belief in they're version of the Bible rather than anything that Bible says about itself. Nobody says the KJV is not God's Word; nor do we reject the proposition that God preserves His Word. What we dispute is the ONLY part of the doctrine that asserts that His Word is only preserved in the KJV. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support that notion, nor can it be proven by logic alone, nor does it make the best sense of all the available evidence. Therefore, we submit that the faith of the KJVOnlyist is in God only in a secondary sense. It is grounded in their own experience, their own irrationality, their own selves first, and that, is by definition, dependence on human reasoning over faith.

Faith and reason are not an either / or propositon. To allege otherwise is the fallacy of the false dilemma. There is another choice. It can be both/and. In Scripture it is always presented as a both/and proposition, never an either/or propostion. Therefore, we assert that those asserting faith and reason are exclusive propositions are incorrect and their "faith" is not faith in God at all, because God presents faith and reason as working in concert not in opposition.