Evanescent Grace

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Winman, May 23, 2012.

  1. Winman

    Winman
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    John Calvin taught that some people can truly believe themselves one of the elect and truly believe they are saved, but are not.

    Now, if this be true, how does one truly KNOW they are saved? How does one truly KNOW they are the elect?

    And do you agree with Calvin that God himself causes this delusion?
     
  2. Yeshua1

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    think that whenever you share with either a JW/Mormon at your front door that is proved!

    And think God confirms to hisown byu the witness of the Holy Spirit, and by evidence in ourlives that the real jesus has really saved us!
     
  3. convicted1

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    I agree that there are some that truly think they are His, and yet are deceived. The CoC, JW's, Mormon's, etc. come to mind. But what about this quote from the article the Brother Winman posted in the OP?

    Now, do you agree that God instills this into the minds of the JW's, CoC, Mormons, etc to believe the way they do? This is making God out as the Author of sin.
     
  4. mont974x4

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    Yes, I think Calvin is right. As was pointed out the JW's and Mormon's are prime examples. Start asking people around you if they are saved, ask where they think they are going, or what religion they are and you will get several who will answer with some variation of "I am a Christian" or "I am going to heaven".


    Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
    Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
    Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (NASB)


    God did say He would send a delusion.
    2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
    2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (NASB)

    He also hardened Pharaoh's heart and sent an evil spirit onto Saul.

    We can know if we are saved though.

    2Co 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?
    2Co 13:6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. (NASB)

    Also read 1 John.
     
  5. convicted1

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    Okay, do you agree with John Calvin on this?

    Did God instill this into their minds, causing them to believe wrongly? I think this is the gist of what Brother Winman is driving at.
     
  6. convicted1

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    In 2 Thess. you need to back up one more verse:

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    The reason why God would send a strong delusion was because they would not(didn't say could not) receive the truth, and therefore, God sent the strong delusion upon them. They became delusional because they would not receive the truth.
     
  7. mont974x4

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    I believe Romans 9 addresses that question.
     
  8. mont974x4

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    Scripture does not leave it as "will not". It does indeed say that most "cannot".

    Before the foundation of the world He chose His elect. Before the foundation of the world He determined to sacrifice His Son. He has prepared good works for His called out ones to walk in (Eph 1 and 2). This means that the majority cannot be saved, they cannot believe.


    Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
    Mat 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    Who are the few who will find it? The elect. The sheep. John 10 is helpful here.
     
  9. convicted1

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    In the first few verses of the chapter, according to y'alls view, Apostle Paul loved his kinsmen more than God does. He states that he could wish that he was accursed from Christ for his brethern.


    Now towards the end of this chapter, Apostle Paul speaks about "vessels of mercy" and "vessels fitted to destruction". The "VoM" were the Jews, and the "VftD" were the gentiles. Apostle Paul was showing that the Jews were "corporately" elected in the OT, and now, in the NT, the Gentiles are elected corporately, and that those who believe, both Jew and Gentile, shall be saved. God didn't save all the OT Jews, not for a lack of an atonement, but due to their lack of belief. Same way now. God doesn't save all gentiles, not for an lack of atonement, but rather, for a lack of belief.
     
  10. mont974x4

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    We say no such thing. Paul did not say the Gentiles were saved corporately.

    Faith, belief, repentance, these things are gifts from God. He enables us to believe. Who does He give that gift to? Those He chose, His elect.


    In the parable of the sower who is the sower? What do the different types of soil illustrated to you?
     
  11. convicted1

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    Yessiree, God has His Elect.

    Isaiah 42:1-7

    1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul elighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

    3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

    4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

    6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


    Election starts and ends with Jesus Christ. We who are saved, are grafted into His Election(John 15).
     
  12. convicted1

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    I know you don't. That would go against your belief system.


    I agree that these are gifts from Him; I have never stated otherwise. I was kinda iffy on repentance being a gift, but I tend to agree now that it's a gift from Him. But a gift can be rejected, as well as accepted. A gift does not mean one will accept it.



    Matthew 13:19-23

    19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.


    Well, here it states it was sown in their hearts. But before it could take root, satan came along and took it away.



    20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

    21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.



    These are they who think they are saved, but over time, they fall away, not having any root in themselves.



    22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.



    These are they who place their trusts in their wealth and not God. Satan has deceived them, and caused them to trust themselves and not God.




    23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


    Now, these are they who place their trust(faith/belief) in God, and have truly been saved.


    Got a question for you. Why did God have to explain the parables to His Disciples, seeing that they had the ability to heal the sick, give sight to the blind, heal lepers, etc? Why didn't they understand His parables?
     
    #12 convicted1, May 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2012
  13. Winman

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    How can you know if you are saved if Calvin is correct? Perhaps you are deceived and only believe yourself saved. Perhaps you are deceived and believe yourself elect when you are not.

    Calvin said this deception is so real that you can truly believe yourself saved and be lost.

    I wasn't addressing Mormons and JWs, I was asking Calvinists. How do Calvinists know they are elect?
     
    #13 Winman, May 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2012
  14. jbh28

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    Here's the entire quote.

    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/calvin/bk3ch02.html#eleven.htm
     
  15. Winman

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    How is that full quote any different from what I posted?

    The question is, if this be true, how can a person truly know they are saved? How can a person know if his faith is genuine, or simply this evanescent grace Calvin spoke of?
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    Willis

    [QUOTEElection starts and ends with Jesus Christ. We who are saved, are grafted into His Election(John 15). ][/QUOTE]


    Jesus is the elect servant.

    We are NOT grafted into his election

    We are elected before we are saved[before the world was]

    We are placed in saving union with the Lord by the Spirit.
     
  17. 12strings

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    It does not make sense to say "Election starts and ends with Jesus Christ." There are clearly other passages in which PEOPLE are said to be "chosen", "predestined", or "elect."

    Even if you take the view that the "chosen" become the "chosen" by choosing to be "chosen" (which also doesn't make sense).

    "Election starts and ends with Jesus Christ" simply doesn't help the discussion, because it ignores places where PEOPLE are elect.
     
  18. psalms109:31

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    The Jews are the natural branches and they were not able to enter Christ because of unbelief. It was not because they were not chosen, but for unbelief.

    There was not anyone who truly sought God and none were righteous. God chosen messengers that even they had to make sure their election was sure, prophets and such.

    God came down from heaven chosen men first fruit and even spoke down from heaven and called Saul, (Paul) that even they had to make sure their election was sure, first fruits you will say.

    God cut out Jews because they disowned Him they are the natural branches; they were there from the beginning. Yet cut out for unbelief, and not able to enter Christ. God kept a remnant, which will trust in the Lord out of them.

    To be His witnesses, and us non-Jews are included with them when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. We are not to be arrogant because God did not spare the natural branches, but cut them out for unbelief. The Jews will be grafted back in not included like us non-Jews if they do not continue in their unbelief.
     
  19. convicted1

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    Exactly. Well stated! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  20. convicted1

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    Apostle Paul disagrees with you.

    Romans 11:17-21

    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


    And so does James.

    James 1:18-21

    18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

    20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

    21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    The Word grafts us in or cuts us out.
     

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