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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Monergist, May 13, 2003.
Not clear if your thumbs down was directed at the Evangelicals who are against demonization of Islam or those who publicly describe it as demonic in origin and wicked/evil in nature.
So I added a thumbs up to balance the picture.
who notes the absence of Vines in the article
Just for some more balance here, the Baptist Press News says that this story is "inaccurate" to say the least. They pretty much say this didn't happen. I believe it was in yesterday's Baptist Press News headlines.
In case you are making a list I am one of those who publicly describe and denounce islam as the demonic false religion from hell that it is.
I second that, Murph.
From the article above, it seems CAIR is happy with this politically correct stance, according to Hodan Hassan, a spokeswoman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations....
And who is CAIR?
CAIR: 'Moderate' friends of terror
BTW, these are the same folks who want to make America a Muslim nation, according to Ibrahim Hooper, the head of CAIR.
[ May 13, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: SheEagle9/11 ]
It's no secret that my view is Islam can only be a false religion if Judaism is a false religion. It's either both or neither. However, rather than debate the issue again, I will respect the views of my Baptist brethren and refrain.
But more to the topic, I'm confused. Was the story posted true, or not?
I wish be clear on this: Islam IS demonic in origin and wicked/evil in nature.
Regarding the accuracy of the article, I did find this link to the other article mentioned above:
Hmmm, John, Judaism has been a false religion since +/-33 AD. Ok 70 AD, if you want to stretch it out until the destruction of the Temple. With either date, in 2003 Judaism is a false religion. It comes down to the question who is Jesus of Nazereth. The denial of His Lordship (His equality with God the Father) is one a mark of a false religion.
Squire, I'm glad that you're being consistent. I understand your view much better now. Thanks.
I agree with Squire. Both modern day Judaism and Islam are false religions.
I agree with Squire. Both modern day Judaism and Islam are false religions. </font>[/QUOTE]False in that neither of them will deliver a soul from hell but to group islam with Judaism in my view is reckless.
I agree one must be measured in drawing parallels. But, parallels can be drawn nonetheless.
Evangelicals Condemn Anti-Islam Remarks
Evangelical Leaders Condemn Statements Against Islam by Conservative Christians
The Associated Press
WASHINGTON May 8 —
Leading evangelical Christians for the first time have publicly condemned assaults on Islam by the Rev. Franklin Graham and other fellow religious conservatives and pledged to heal rifts with Muslims that threaten missionary work overseas.
The evangelicals said that the derisive comments endangered Christians working in the Muslim world, strained already tense interfaith relations and fed the perception in the Mideast and beyond that the war on terrorism is a Christian crusade against Islam.
"We must temper our speech," said the Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, which represents more than 43,000 congregations and helped organize a meeting on the issue Wednesday. "There has to be a way to do good works without raising alarms."
Paul Marshall, senior fellow at the Center for Religious Freedom, a human rights group, said anti-Islam comments serve only to antagonize people. "Exactly what is to be achieved by that except boosting the ego of who said it?" he asked.
Graham was in San Diego on Wednesday for a mission led by his father, the Rev. Billy Graham, and could not immediately be reached to comment, said his spokesman, Jeremy Blume.
Hodan Hassan, a spokeswoman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, which is among Graham's harshest critics, said she was encouraged by Wednesday's meeting. About 50 representatives of evangelical churches, schools and mission groups attended.
"We can understand theological differences but what's important is that the dialogue is one of respect, not demonization," Hassan said.
No Muslims participated in the event, although a local mosque director was invited.
Muslims were outraged when Franklin Graham called Islam "a very evil and wicked religion" following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and again last summer when the Rev. Jerry Vines, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, called the Prophet Muhammad "a demon-possessed pedophile."
The Revs. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson also have criticized the religion.
Clive Calver, president of World Relief, the humanitarian aid arm of the evangelical association, said all the statements have "placed lives and livelihoods at risk" overseas, where missionaries have become targets of Muslim extremists.
At one point in the gathering, Michael Cromartie, vice president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a Washington think tank, asked if anyone wanted to defend the comments made by Graham, Robertson and Falwell. No one did, though participants also avoided personally criticizing the religious leaders.
The evangelical group and the Institute on Religion and Democracy, a conservative Christian organization, are drafting guidelines to begin interfaith dialogue with Islamic leaders. While Muslim leaders have been meeting regularly with liberal Protestants, no such national dialogue has taken place with conservatives.
Evangelicals at the meeting acknowledged they have an arduous task ahead to overcome grievances among members of both faiths.
Conservative Christians have been struggling to end abuse of minority Christians in Muslim countries, while Muslims resent Christian proselytizing in their communities.
Evangelicals will not participate in interfaith talks that require them to play down their beliefs a concession they believe liberal Christians have wrongly made to befriend Muslims. And for some conservative Christians, Islam has replaced communism as the "modern-day equivalent of the evil empire," said Rich Cizik, a spokesman for the National Association of Evangelicals.
Haggard suggested holding a meeting with Falwell, Robertson and other high-profile evangelicals to explain the damage their comments have caused.
"We've got to have an attitude of how can we serve, how can we help," said Calver. "Saying Islam is evil isn't going to help any of us."
On the Net:
National Association of Evangelicals:
Institute on Religion and Democracy:
photo credit and caption:
Hillel Fradkin, left, with the Ethicsand Policy Center and Forest Montgomery, center, with the National Association of Evangelicals, retired, listen at the Consultation on Evangelical Christian-Muslim Relations Wednesday, May 7, 2003, in Washington. The group is trying to learn more about the history, simularities and differences of their two faiths.(AP Photo/Lawrence Jackson)
Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Copyright © 2002 ABC News Internet Ventures.
So let me see if i understand this correctly. We need to stop calling Islam an evil and violent religion, because we're afraid the Muslims will harm our missionaries, and thus, prove those comments to be 100% correct.
Larry I think you have broken the code. We should not made the derogratory comments about Islam because it does place Christians in Islamic countries in danger. Three missionaries killed in Yemin, roits in Pakistan, etc.
Think for a moment back to the O.T. Did the prophets refrain from condemning Baal worship for fear of reprisal?
I wonder what Elijah would say about Islam today? Bet he would condemn it as evil, demonic, violent, etc.
So let me see if i understand this correctly. We need to stop calling Islam an evil and violent religion, because we're afraid the Muslims will harm our missionaries, and thus, prove those comments to be 100% correct.
I think what we need to do is stop calling Islam evil and violent, because Muslims are our brothers through Abraham. Our approach needs to be different.
First, we need to recognize those in Islam who misuse the name of their religion as an excuse to wage violence.
Second, we need to affirm those in Islam who eschew the acts of those in Islam who misuse the name of their religion as an excuse to wage violence.
Third, we need to share why we believe what we believe about Jesus, rather than cast stones at them.
Fourth, we need to offer assistance to the Muslim community as we do to any onther community. Jesus was very clear that charity should be to those in need, not just those who share our beliefs.
Fifth, we need to worry less about taking people out of Islam. We instead need to put let the Holy Spirit work in a Muslim. Before you say "that sounds too ecuminical", consider this: A Muslim, having the smallest hint of the Holy Spirit, goes back to his place of worship. Pretty soon, there will be another, and another, and another. Eventually, the Holy Spirit makes its way throughout a whole Muslim community. Over time, Muslims, filled with the Holy Spirit, begin to abandon practices that contradict Christian beliefs, and begin to follow after God as we know Him. Sure, this may take ten, fifty, or hundreds of years. But WE need to let God's time be God's time and not our time, and, in the mean time, simply be witnesses to Christ and vessels of the Holy Spirit.
This is exactly my point. When they harm our missionaries, or any other innocent people, they prove these accusations to be true. I don't think it is retaliation against the comments of Christian leaders however. They took several of our missionaries hostage in Afganastan, with the intent to kill them, before we liberated that country. These missionaries were rescued by Special Forces. Praise be to God for that. It's not in retaliation, it's religious persecution. They will attack our missionaries whether or not we give them provocation.
However, we have to send missionaries over there if we are to be true to Christ's commission. We have to keep them in our constant prayer, and trust that God will protect His servants according to His will.
Love in Christ,
Muslims are NOT our brothers through Abraham. Islam didn't even become a religion until some 600 years after Jesus Christ.
There are millions of Muslims who aren't descended from Abraham and Ishmael, scattered all over the world.
Are you saying Filipinos who are Muslims are descended from Abraham? Or Russian Muslims are descended from Abraham?
You are confusing an evil religious system whose god is Satan with Arabs. Not all Arabs are Muslims. Many just happen to be born-again Christians.
The ethnicity of people descended from Abraham and Ishmael is not interchangeable with the evil religion "Islam." You are very confused, Johnv.
Listen to the Five Lies of Islam at this link:
People who embrace Islam are deceived. They follow an evil religious/political system. Just as Germans were deceived when they embraced Hitler. And just as Russians were deceived when they embraced Communism.
Evangelical leaders who condemn statements against Islam are not telling the truth and are playing to the politically correct crowd.
Islam is out to conquer the world. Anyone who believes otherwise does so at his/her own peril.
But I am not going to debate this fact with you, Johnv. You have defended Islam on this board ever since you joined.
Anyone else who is interested in knowing the truth, however, will search it out for themselves. A good starting point is listening to the audio link I provided above.
Former Muslim Dr. Ergun Caner, who has written a telling book called "Unveiling Islam", appeared on The 700 Club this week to discuss Islam and give us an inside look at Muslim beliefs.
CBN.com - PAT ROBERTSON: Ladies and gentlemen, a week or two ago I made a statement on this program that I differ with our esteemed president because I didn't think that Islam was a religion of peace. One of those nice people who tapes our program gave it to the Washington Post. And it became a firestorm. It is like saying the earth is round and everybody says how can you say such a thing? All I know is I have studied history and am aware of what is going on around the world. It was like a no-brainer. But somehow, it got to be a matter of grave controversy where people were screaming at each other and saying I was a Nazi. You just say what is the matter? We have a guest who came out of Islam. He's one of only 20 former Muslims who are now preachers. He's one of only eight professors of theology. It is a pleasure to welcome Dr. Ergun Caner back to The 700 Club.
DR. ERGUN CANER: Honor to be here.
ROBERTSON: It was said by our President that Islam is a religion of peace. I mean, where does he get that?
CANER: The very word Islam. It does mean peace.
ROBERTSON: Peace in submission?
CANER: It means peace with or submission to Allah. It has nothing to do with the Infidels. It does not mean peace with the Infidels. It means peace with Allah. The Qur’an is very clear about how they feel about you and myself. It says, we are open enemies with the Infidels.
ROBERTSON: What about this jihad? They say jihad is something you fight in your heart and mind. It has nothing to do with real war? What does the Qur’an say about that? It (Caner’s Qur’an) is a big, thick thing.
CANER: It is in English and Arabic. And the reason I brought this is because men such as yourself, Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr. at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Mac Brunson in Dallas, you guys have come under attack for saying that jihad is founded in the Qur’an. The apologists will say the word was never in the Qur’an. Yes, they have the Qur’an which is supposedly the words of Allah and then the words and teachings of Muhammad. I will cite two verses I had to memorize as a child that are taught to young Muslims. I hope this puts an end to the problem they have. They don't have a problem with you Dr. Robertson. They have a problem with their own Qur’an. There are Muslims who say they don't believe it say if anyone desires a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him. Let me show you:
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him."
o Surah 3:85
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the people of the Book (Jews and Christians), until they pay compensation with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
- Surah 9:29
Muhammad’s last words recorded in the Hadith were ‘turn the Pagans out of the Arabian Peninsula.’ The reason that I and others like me are not well liked in the Islamic community is the belief that anyone who changes the Islamic religion, kill him.
ROBERTSON: Just like that, kill him?
CANER: One word in Arabic. And two word in the English. Kill him.
ROBERTSON: Somehow we are not bringing that out in the religion of peace business. In other words, think about history because for the first hundred years after Muhammad's death, Islam swept like a fire across North Africa and destroyed all of the Christian churches there and caused everybody to be submitted. Tell us about how they started that.
CANER: You understand that Islam is based on conversion. But it is either by conversion by heart or by sword. When someone says Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, first, one must remember that it is biological. You are born to a Muslim family. Your father whispers the Kaleema in your ear and you are a Muslim. Secondly, it is conversion by the sword. Slay them where you will find them. And so it spreads like a wildfire.
ROBERTSON: Slay them where you find them?
CANER: That is directly from the Qur’an itself.
ROBERTSON: Slay them where you find them? How do they say that is peaceful?
CANER: I understand why our president said what he said. He doesn't want us fighting Muslims here in America. And here in America this is a very important point. In America, jihad as it is Holy War, is a doctrine. It is a teaching. But from where I come from in Turkey, Islam is more than doctrine, it is ethic. We live with it day and night. Everyone says Turkey is so advanced and modern yet 26 Christian churches have been closed in the last three months, and a thousand Christians have been slain in the last decade.
ROBERTSON: For example, in Saudi Arabia can there be a Christian church?
CANER: That is a tremendous question. You travel the world so you know this. According to the Pact of Oma, They believe every Islamic State believes in religious toleration not religious freedom. Religious toleration says you can be by yourself but if you win a Muslim to Jesus Christ as we are called to do, you can be put to death on the spot.
ROBERTSON: For winning a Muslim to Jesus you can be put to death?
CANER: As a matter of fact, Hadith 9:50 says no one can be killed for killing an Infidel which explains why they will not turn (Osama) bin Laden over.
ROBERTSON: No one can be killed for killing an Infidel? That is what Muhammad said?
CANER: From the Hadith. That is why everyone becomes so worried when bin Laden comes on television. I am thrilled because the first group that bin Laden speaks to are the other Muslims who have not joined the jihad. And bin Laden quoting from the Hadith and quoting from the Qur’an always says you have been called to jihad. They signed the Fatwa on February 23, 1998. He says, "I have called you. You have been called to jihad." It is one thing to say they don't believe in it. There are Muslims who legitimately don't believe in it. And it is another to say it is not taught in Islam.
ROBERTSON: We have a 1.1 billion Muslims in the world. How many of these people honest to goodness believe in Qur’an and believe in the teachings of Muhammad?
CANER: They would say all of them. How many of them follow it is another question. But right now as we speak there are 300,000 who are like me. They are being trained in jihad. They are being trained in the schools. We memorize the verses of the Hadith, we memorize the Qur’an, and we are holy warriors. You know, they always bring up the question to you … well, Christianity and the Old Testament -- we have Christian militias. But for someone to set up a compound in some state and fire off rounds and say we are doing it in the name of Christ. They have to do so in spite of the teachings of Jesus Christ. But a Muslim who does so, does so because of the teachings of Muhammad. It is not descripted, it is prescriptive in the Qur’an for a Muslim to be called to Holy War.
ROBERTSON: We have a last slide that says seize them and slay them wherever you find them. It says:
Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
- Surah 4:89
Tell us about this one.
CANER: They call the Christians people of the book and Jews people of the book. So the idea for a Muslim, who is an apologist this is a nightmare. For someone to quote the Qur’an on national television and around the world because they say it is passive and always is in response. You are taking it out of context. There are over 120 verses that call Muslims to Holy War in the Qur’an not withstanding the Hadith which has all of the protocols by which bin Laden operates.
ROBERTSON: Didn’t Muhammad say in one of his writings, speaking that the last days wouldn't come until the Jews were all killed by the Muslims?
CANER: Isn't it interesting that during our former administration they were offered over 80% of the Holy Land and they turned it down. They don't want part of Israel. They want all of Israel. I find it interesting when I am talking to Jewish friends, I say were it not for Jesus Christ we would be across the line for one another.
ROBERTSON: We have questions that have been sent in to us on the Internet. Peggy asks, "Thank you for presenting an informed Muslim-based perspective on Islam. Can you tell us what part Jesus plays in Islam?"
CANER: Well, I teach this at my college, at Criswell College. Muslims say they believe in Jesus, they say sometimes they believe more in Jesus than we do. But to a Muslim, Jesus is a prophet and nothing more than a messenger of Allah. They think he will be sort of like the angel coming and getting us at the end of times but that Muhammad is the final prophet and the seal of the prophets. And Jesus was just among one of 25.
ROBERTSON: The word Ayatollah, is that spirit of the Lord? Prophet of the Lord?
CANER: Depending the sect, you have the spirit of the Lord and in some sects there is a Mullah.
ROBERTSON: But that is spirit of Allah. So, the Ayatollah Khomeni would be deeply venerated if he was the spirit of Allah. Is that not correct?
CANER: Here in America, Muslims are different. I tell people all of the time that Muslims in America were genuinely shocked by the bombing of September 11th because again, here, they have gotten used to our country. You came under incredible heat for saying they have come as missionaries and many of them do. So here I am as a former Muslim and I say Dr. Robertson, you and Dr. Mohler, and Dr. Brunson are speaking the truth and getting beaten up for no reason. But the reason is we are in a culture now that is so synchrotistic. They want us all to have a big group hug and to light a candle, sing a theme song, and have an Oprah (Winfrey) love affair. The thing is, the only thing they believe, the only absolute, that they don't accept is that there are no absolutes. We as Christians and Muslims make this point as well. The culture wants everybody to be the same. Muslims say we are not the same as the Christians. Christians say we do not worship the same God.
ROBERTSON: One last question. This one says, "I am thinking about becoming a Muslim. Before I do that, however, I would like to ask why you changed from being a Muslim to being a Christian?"
CANER: Well, I love that question. I get that in the secular media all of the time. I didn’t change anything. I got saved. I was made righteous with Jesus Christ. I am not religious by nature. You look at me, I don't particularly look like a professor or a pastor. I look like a motorcycle guy. I was saved and it was the preaching of two things. Mercy and grace. As Muslims, we live in fear of the scales their entire life. Fear to get to paradise you must be 51% good.
ROBERTSON: You never know?
CANER: Even Muhammad didn't know. In the Hadith he said, ‘I don't know where I am going. Only Allah knows.’ When someone told me that grace, Christ’s death on the cross and atonement would free me from the fear of scales and what Jesus did for me that I could not do myself. That was a brand transforming new day.
ROBERTSON: So the man who wants to be a Muslim, what do you tell him?
CANER: I tell him that Jesus Christ didn't come to be a way, Jesus Christ came to be THE way. And Jesus Christ came to do for this man what he cannot do for himself regardless of how religious he is. People ask me all the time, do good Muslims go to hell? Yes, and you know what? Good Baptists go to hell, too. It is not your denomination, it is what you did with Jesus Christ.
ROBERTSON: This book "Unveiling Islam" by our guest is available to you. Get it from www.cbn.com or you can call us at 1-800-759-0700 and we will tell you how you can get a hold of it. We appreciate you for your stand. And we hope, brother, they don't get you. So far so good.
CANER: You face the same type of heat I do. You are much higher profile than little old me.
ROBERTSON: They are after me but we'll trust the Lord for his protection. God bless you and thank you for being here.
A servant of Christ,