Evangelism with out the Law?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Fletcher Law, Sep 23, 2009.

  1. Fletcher Law

    Fletcher Law
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    In Bible study tonight we had a couple of people who considered the law [10 commandments] as part of the Old Testament only.
    One person went as far to say that the Law [10 commandments] had no place in conviction of sins by the Holy Spirit.
    I strongly believe we must use the Law in evangelism.
    Please share how the Law is not essential in evangelism if you believe this.
    Pro law users also please give your input.

    In Christ Alone!

    Fletcher Law
     
  2. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think it's necessary to cite the decalogue in evangelism, but it's necessary to live by the spirit of the law when choosing to walk with Christ.
     
  3. Dan V.

    Dan V.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    If the 10 commandments are for the OT only, then let's all help ourselves to each other's check book, take our neighbor's wives, worship other gods....you get the point.

    If we are not guilty of sin (by breaking His eternal moral law summarized in the 10 Commandments), then we have no need for a saviour.

    I'm sure many others here will contribute.

    Dan V.
     
  4. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    We would not know of sin if it were not for the Law. And where the Laws of the OT were not available the laws of man sufficed, though they are nothing more than a vague shadow of God's law, Pual states it still manifests their sin and brings that person under condemnation.

    Where there is no law there is no sin.
     
    #4 Allan, Sep 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2009
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,213
    Likes Received:
    192
    Evangelism is giving the Gospel (Mark 16:15, etc.). The Gospel as defined by Paul does not mention the law (1 Cor. 15:1-8; sin is prominent in this passage, the law is not). The evangelism done by the Apostles usually did not mention the law at all (book of Acts). Ergo, the law is not necessary in evangelism. Case closed. :type:
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,371
    Likes Received:
    790
    I am not sure of the concern mentioned here about the law or how that played out in their evangelism but I do know that you cannot evangelize without dealing with our sin issue, the wrath of God, or the cross.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,165
    Likes Received:
    322
    Technically speaking only the Spirit of God convicts of sin:

    John 16
    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;​

    Functioning as an evangelist one offers the remedy for sin (the gospel) in the message which usually includes the broken law as a reminder to the listeners of their lost condition because "sin is the transgression of the law".
    The lost condition of the sinner must be brought to the forefront of their thinking (Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God). ​

    Most folks are hiding from God and using cover ups (religion, good works).
    Only the sick have need of a physician, the law uncovers the main symptom, guilt, to draw/lead them to the Great Physician.​

    Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

    Presumably, the Spirit of God has done His work when we preach, a reminder might be necessary with the stubborn and those with hardened hearts (or on their way).


    HankD​
     
    #7 HankD, Sep 24, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2009
  8. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Chapter 19: Of the Law of God
    1._____ God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
    ( Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:10, 12 )
    2._____ The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
    ( Romans 2:14, 15; Deuteronomy 10:4 )

    3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
    ( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )

    4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
    ( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )

    5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
    ( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

    6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
    ( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )

    7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
    ( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Were you at my church last night? :laugh:

    That is almost exactly what my pastor said in his message last night.

    I would also like to add that Jesus made it very simple for us to remember what sin is when He gave the 2 great commandments.


    Love God with all your heart, soul and mind.

    Love you neighbor as yourself.




    We should also remember that the Law doesn't save, it only condemns. But we are not to throw the Law away because it is our schoolmaster and shows us exactly how we have fallen short of the glory of God.
     
  10. Fletcher Law

    Fletcher Law
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not so fast my friend John From Japan

    In John 1:17 the gospel of John pairs the law and gospel in understanding leading to salvation.
    "For the law was given by Moses, Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ."

    As mentioned by another poster "how would know sin with out the law?"
    How can you be saved with out knowledge of sin.
    How can we know we sinned with out the law?
    As highlighted by John 1:17 and Jesus using the law in talking with the rich
    So I think this is not a cased closed.
    I think it is essential that the law is used in evangelism. The greatest example is by Jesus in speaking to the young ruler- Mark 10:17-22, Matt 19:16-22, Luke 18:18-23
    Roman 3:24 penned by Paul says " ...,for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
    No you do not have to recite the ten commandments but sin has to be delt with. How do we know sin? We get back to the law.
    When saved we are redeemed from the curse of the being made a curse for us.[Galations 1:13]
    Romans 8:1-3.written by Paul makes a good case also about using the law in evangelism.,The saved, not the unregenerate, are then free from curse of the law of sin and death. We obey the law out of love and not out of fear of losing our salvation and help the Lord in keeping us.
    Knowledge and application of the law is essential in evangelism.
    The case for not using the law is not closed. It's blown apart.


    In Christ Alone!

    Fletcher
     
  11. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,407
    Likes Received:
    328
    According to JoJ's law only.

    "I do not believe that any man can preach the gospel who does not preach the law. The law is the needle, and you cannot draw the silken thread of the gospel through a man's heart unless you first send the needle of the law to make way for it. If men do not understand the law, they will not feel that they are sinners. And if they are not consciously sinners, they will never value the sin offering. There is no healing a man till the law has wounded him, no making him alive till the law has slain him." (Charles H. Spurgeon)
     
  13. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    It seems like each time I come back to the BB, I am amazed by something. This time some will have the law removed from the gospel. I will have to agree with Spurgeon on this one. But many a man of the past believed this.

    Like this one...

    That quote did not come from a Calvinist. Yes, it is true that Calvinist hold this too.

    The lawless gospel became wide spread in this nation under the "easy believe" system preached from the 60s - 80s. Thank God many of theses churches have left that bad idea, but only after their churches were filled with people wanting the benefits of salvation and keeping their sins intact. This is not salvation folks.

    The only thing that stayed intact, was their need to be saved from their sins.

    The law goes hand in hand with the gospel.

    The first purpose of the law is to be a mirror. The law tells us much about who God is. Perhaps more important, the law illumines human sinfulness.

    Augustine wrote, “The law orders that we, after attempting to do what is ordered, and so feeling our weakness under the law, may learn to implore the help of grace.”

    In other words, when the law is held it will point out weakness in us and drive us toward Christ. The Bible calls the law a schoolmaster with Christ the only answer.


    A second purpose for the law is the restraint of evil. The law, in and of itself, cannot change human hearts. It can, however, serve to protect the righteous from the unjust.

    Calvin says this purpose is “by means of its fearful denunciations and the consequent dread of punishment, to curb those who, unless forced, have no regard for rectitude and justice.”

    The law allows for a limited measure of justice on this earth, until the last judgment is realized.


    The third purpose of the law is to reveal what is pleasing to God. As born-again children of God, the law enlightens us as to what is pleasing to our Father, whom we seek to serve. The Christian delights in the law as God Himself delights in it.

    Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

    This is the highest function of the law, to serve as an instrument for the people of God to give Him honor and glory.
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,213
    Likes Received:
    192
    Would you care to interact with my argument about the Great Commission, the Gospel as defined by Paul, and the way the apostles presented the Gospel in Acts?

    Let's make it more specific. If we must use the law in evangelism, then why did Peter not use it in Acts 2? Three thousand were saved without one single mention of the law! And these were Jews, mind you. Comments?
     
  15. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello John :wavey:

    I think there might be a disconnect between you guys on this.

    I agree that a person does not need to list the 10 commandments when evangelizing. However is it not a listing of the law to some degree when we are explaining sin and righteousness. To the Jews in Acts, they knew the law already and so Peter, who was proclaiming their actions and who they crusified could only bring about conviction if they understood they had sinned. And sin is known if one knows one has broken the law of God. Isn't that Pual's arguement - that he would not have known sin if it were not for the law? And since repentance is part of the gospel message they must indeed know why the must repent and as such know something of the Law of God, of which they were offenders and needing a savior.

    So to summerize, I 'think' the issue isn't so much that we need to give the big 10 to present the gosple, but it is also important to remember that the people can only understand their need for a savior when they first understand 'why' they need a savior. If one presents the gospel are we not to tell them why it is such good news. And in the telling that Christ died for sin, are we not to explain just what sin is?
     
    #15 Allan, Sep 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2009
  16. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Allan,

    This is the way I put it Allan,

    There are 3 things one must know about God for salvation to happen.

    1) The fact of God (holy)..
    2) That God will judge sin
    3) God sent his Son to redeem sinners.

    That says nothing about the law of God, but try to preach these 3 things without talking about the law of God and you will find you can't
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,213
    Likes Received:
    192
    Hi, Allan.

    Thanks for your explanation. I'm out of the loop on this, being in Japan. I understand there are some men out there in the States nowadays who promote the use of the law in evangelism. I have no objection to that per se, and want to understand what they are saying, so maybe this thread can help me.

    I baptized a man in March, a former drug pusher who had been in prison three times. His own heart, his conscience, told him he was a sinner. I had to spend very little time talking about his sin when I was having Bible studies in his apartment last year to lead him to Christ. I didn't have to convince him at all that he was a sinner. So again, why do I have to use the Jewish law in evangelizing such a person? You've probably never talked to anyone who knew less about the Jews and their law than a Japanese criminal!

    Recently while on street evangelism I witnessed to a yakuza (Japanese mafia) with two joints on his little finger missing, indicating that he had had to atone to his yakuza boss twice for failure. (He is #2 in the local branch of a national yakuza gang.) When I started talking about Heaven and Hell to him, and the fact that a pure heart is needed to enter a pure Heaven, and only Christ can do that, he immediately started joking uneasily with the other yakuza with him, telling him, "You'll be running in circles in Hell yourself." Now how would I use the Jewish law with a Japanese gangster? I just don't get the OP connection with when I actually witness.

    I suggest that the Holy Spirit Himself is who brings conviction of sin to such people. He may do so with the Jewish law, or He may do so with the man's conscience. Why, then, do I have to use the Jewish law in evangelism? This thread is not making sense to me in the light of the Great Commission, etc.
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,213
    Likes Received:
    192
    So then the law is not an explicit part of the Gospel, but implied?
     
  19. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    True, some do.

    First, you know as well as I do that no man can convince another of being a sinner as this is the work of the Holy Spirit. But scripture tells us that where the OT law is absent, their own law is the testimony against them. Therefore the man you spoke with already understood in a basic way, sin - based upon their own laws. You having brought it to him from a biblical perspective was God's way of bringing him to full truth of what is sin and righteousness. As I stated this concept was something he only grasped because of the shadowy figure of men’s laws which stood against him.

    But even you can't get around the law in your witnessing because as you stated "a pure heart is needed to enter a pure heaven, and only Christ can do that". Your entire point is based upon the Law, of which, is there to show us what is sin and perfection. Even the yakuza have laws, and based even upon their own twisted version they can grasp the concept of right and wrong using their laws to 'illustrate' the biblical concepts (such as breaking them and punishment for it).

    No man can be saved until he knows he is lost and this can only come about if he know 'why' he is lost. If he knows why, then the gospel message will become evident to him as to why Christ not only is The Savior but 'why' he is the Only Savior.

    I agree that it is only the Holy Spirit who brings conviction of sin.
    Yet the law is used, whether OT or mans, to prove not only 'what' sin is but 'that' it is. As I said with respect to Paul’s argument, he would not know what sin was if it had not been for the law. And it is because he now knows what sin is that he knows he needed a saviour. This is whole crux of the gospel message. But I am sure you arleady know this so I will step out now.

    BTW - It sounds like God is working over there and in your ministry. That is GREAT brother, exciting! :)
     
    #19 Allan, Sep 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2009
  20. Fletcher Law

    Fletcher Law
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0



    GREAT COMMISION AND PAUL
    In the great commission I assume converts repented and do repent of their sin-by knowledge of the law [and if not a direct quoting of the law then at least know they have committed transgressions against God.] . All well done Christian baptisms I have seen have a time for the convert to publicly renounce sin. In witnessing men are humbled by the law you then move to the good news. I assume the apostles knew how to baptise. I know they know how Christ witnessed to the young ruler. Christ presented the law to an arrogant man. He rejected Christ but after Christ approached the man with the law. Many today would have made a false convert of the young ruler. The apostles also saw Jesus witness to Zacchaeus. Zacchaeus was humbled by his sin and and repented. Theur was no need then for talk of the law by Christ, it was time for grace.
    The Great Commission would have been derived from the teaching of the disciples by the ministry of Christ who used the law and upheld it and paid for our transgression of the law.


    In all the scriptures I used to support the law in evangelism most were first written by Paul.


    ACTS
    In Peter's sermon in Acts 2 in verse 23 murder is brought up,and verse 36 and
    vs. 38 they were asked to repent for the remission of sins. One sin only listed-just the biggest in history -the murder of Christ. They were all Jews who responded at Pentacost and I feel confident they knew the law. They were humbled and convicted then by the Holy Spirit. They knew the law and were convicted so it was now time for grace.
    In Acts 3 in verses 14&15&17 again they were convicted of violating the commandments in the murder of Christ.. Vs. 19 says to repent and be converted.They were already broken by the unjust murder of Christ and the offer of salvation.
    Vs. 26 turn away from your iniquities.
    Repent from what? -murder and sin.

    I believe all these Hebrews had knowledge of law and sin.
    In Acts 7:38 Stephen says one [Moses] received "living oracles" [the law]on Mount Siani.
    vs. 39 Their fathers would not obey them and rejected them. They made gods and a golden calf. [the first 2 commandments broken]I In vs. 51-52 they are acused of resisting the Holy Spirit, and murdering the prophets and being betrayers and the murdere of the Just One. Vs. 53 the people are acused of receiving the law and not keeping it.

    My main point is once you have seen someone broken by the law
    you move onto grace and the Savior. The law then has served it's purpose. If your offering Christ to an arrogant person that is feeding pearls to swine. People have to be humbled by their sin by stating God's standard and our short comings [sin] and the saving message then can convert their humble heart.


    In Christ Alone

    Fletcher
    ww.FletcherlawandGrace.com
     
    #20 Fletcher Law, Sep 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2009

Share This Page

Loading...