Everyone has a freewill, except God?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, Feb 13, 2007.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    I heard someone this week suggest that in the arminian way of thinking, everyone has a freewill........except God!

    Somehow, it seems that in the arminian way, God has been relegated to the sidelines, He is a referee at best but not an active player in the Game.
     
  2. webdog

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    Shouldn't the title of this thread be...

    STRAWMAN:BangHead:
     
  3. Allan

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    Your opinion can only be proporly evaluted in light of what type of Armenianism that person adhears to. Traditional Arminianism does not, but the more current and progressive view I would say is accurately summed up.

    The Word of Faith movement is a good example of progressive Arminianism. God is bound by our demands to obey. Or that God only moves when He is given permission to. So He basically drops hints as to what would be a good idea but will not act unless we loose Him to do so. HERESY!!
     
  4. AAA

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    Look @ This!

    Hmm...........

    GOD has the free will to chose as HE wishes, when HE wishes and how HE wishes...

    If GOD is indeed soveriegn, why is HE NOT soveriegn enough to give man free will if HE so choses? Think about it...

    If you truely believe HE is soveriegn, then you must also conclude that HE is able to give men free will if HE so choses; but on the other hand the free willers also will have to believe that GOD is indeed soveriegn, and if HE does NOT give man free will He will still be a soveriegn GOD.

    If you say that GOD can't decide to give free will to whom HE choses, then you can not say that you believe in a soveriegn GOD. Can you?

    If the free willers say that GOD can't decide agianst man's free will as HE choses, then they can't say they believe in a soveriegn GOD. Can they?

    God is indeed a soveriegn GOD...AMEN!

    :godisgood:
     
  5. npetreley

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    I have thought about it the 1,000 times people have said it. It is a word game and it is nonsense. If God's sovereign decision is to make man sovereign over his eternal destiny, then God has abdicated His throne on that matter. He is no longer sovereign over man's eternal destiny. He can't sovereignly decide not to be sovereign over an issue, and remain sovereign over that issue. It's a logical impossibility.
     
  6. Dale-c

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    I was going to write this as well, but you beat me to it :)

    What "AAA" is saying is that God is sovereign but he chooses to give up His sovereignty? One way or the other, He longer has "free will".
    You can say he Chose to limit himself, as I have heard people say, but that would mean He is still limited.

    So, the logical conclusion to what AAA said is that God is so sovereign, he decided to give up His sovereignty in salvation.
     
  7. Dale-c

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    Webdog, you can't have it both ways, someone has to be sovereign in salvation.
    It has to be up to SOMEONES will.
    Either that will be God, or it will be man.

    You believe it is mans will that decides.
    I believe your belief is a totally false.
     
  8. skypair

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    npetreley

    YES! Hallelujiah, a Calvinist finally seems to "get it!"

    God abdicates His throne in the lost person's heart -- NOT over all creation! And He still "sovereignly" decides where that person will go despite that lost person's rejection of God.

    And if that man should turn from his wicked ways and receive Christ, then God would resume His throne! Wow! Did you understand that when you wrote it?

    skypair
     
    #8 skypair, Feb 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2007
  9. skypair

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    Not quite right, Dale. God's "free will" always means that He can choose to intervene. He often chooses not to exercise His free will and power, right?

    And as I said to npetreley -- He doesn't lose His sovereignty over your destiny, regardless of which way you choose, does He?

    skypair
     
  10. npetreley

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    I didn't write that. What I wrote was that He can't sovereignly decide not to be sovereign over an issue, and remain sovereign over that issue. It's a logical impossibility.

    If He abdicated His throne over the lost person's heart, then man is the hinge and turning point of his own salvation, and has a right to glory in that part of his salvation. The Bible clearly rules out the possibility of boasting, yet if man is sovereign over his own eternal destiny, the ones who choose "rightly" have something about which to boast.
     
  11. Dale-c

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    Umm.....yes, I think he does.
    How can He still be sovereign over my destiny if he has no control over it?

    The thing that comforts me is that when people try to limit God.....He isn't limited.

    he is sovereign in salvation whether you like it or not.
     
  12. skypair

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    He does "control it" because He sends you to hell. He still determines the outcome of your decision -- I might say over all our decisions. He OVERRIDES our will in deciding against Him and instead gives us what we deserve for it in every case!! Sounds to me like you think the "elect" will get away with not affirmatively choosing Him.

    It's a shame you want to frame it that way -- because God may have chosen to limit Himself in order to find out what YOU will do.

    What an unkind thing to say! Have I not said that He is sovereign regardless of what my decision is? Just because I choose one way or another does not mean I get my own exclusive way. I might think I do, but I don't. The outcome is ALWAYS His way!

    skypair
     
  13. skypair

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    If He can't sovereignly decide to do what He wants, then I'm afraid you have put a limit on your God. Like I just told dale -- we can choose what we want but God always controls the outcome. Problem for Calvinists is that God has told us the outcome of BELIEVING on Him and Calvinists "pooh-pooh" it!

    Problem? Yeah, cause Calvinists think they will be given faith for unbelief. There is no "crossover" to God -- they presume themselves to be elect -- and they hate that others seem to know they are saved by "doing" something.

    Stop with the "false humility," npetreley. Have you ever heard of salvation spoken of as taking self off the throne of you life and putting God on the throne? That is a denial of self-worth, not an affirmation of it! Calvinism has instilled an image into your sotierology to make you reflexsively repulsed by a motive that isn't, in fact, to be found in anyone who has received salvation in Christ.

    skypair
     
    #13 skypair, Feb 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2007
  14. MB

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    Hi Dale;
    You're right He is Sovereign how ever your definition of the word isn't according to the English language.

    Actally Sovereignty has nothing to do with having constant control. Sovereignty is the authority to control and not the control it self.

    As far as God's freewill, Calvinism itself limits God's will to what they think He has already determined, but when Showed from plain scripture that it's His will that all come to Him.
    Then most Calvinist want to ignore it;
    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Notice this verse for instance;

    Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    Notice it is the Gentiles that have been granted repentance not just some preselect few, that all Calvinist seem to want to claim they are part of.

    No sir, it isn't God's freewill those who believe in a choice have denied but the Calvinist have denied God's own will to support there doctrine. They deny it's God's will for all men to come to him and be saved.

    Calvinist claim they believe in God's Sovereignty all the while denying His will altogether and inserting there will's in to God's plan, as if there will, is God's will.
    MB
     
  15. Dale-c

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    Either you have no understanding of what calvinists believe, or you are a liar!
    calvinists do NOT "pooh-pooh" the outcome of believing in Christ. To put it another way, calvinists do NOT believe in salvation aside from belief in Christ.

    THere maybe some hyper-calvinist out there that does but traditional, biblical calvinism doesn't hold to that strawman.
     
  16. Dale-c

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    Again, either you are ignorant, or you are a liar.
     
  17. Dale-c

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    So, are you saying that many non calvinists are not truly saved then?
     
  18. reformedbeliever

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    Hello MB. Now don't get upset about this.... I'm not calling you an open theist. This is an open theist view however. There are some on here that do not have a problem with being labeled open theist, but I know you are not one of them.

    MB. You have been shown time and again that if it is God's perfect will that all come to Him, that would be universalism. Not all will be saved. I have personally dealt with these verses of scripture that you and others use to imply that God is not willing that any perish etc.... He is not willing that any of the elect perish, and He is not willing that only one race of mankind not perish... not the universalist implication that you have .

    The same word for all in this verse is all sorts of in 1 Ti 6:10, 10. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
    G3956
    πᾶς
    pas
    pas
    Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.



    You can not use all to be inclusive of all mankind without understanding the context of the scripture. A little language study will show you that this is not universalist meaning, which would be so if your view was used.

    Can you not see the sovereign purpose of God in this verse of scripture? God granted repentence? C'mon MB.... don't try to use this scripture to make a case for your theology.



    :rolleyes:

     
  19. webdog

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    Like I said...strawman. I don't personally know any non cal that believes man is sovereign over God. Every man is shown the truth...by God...sovereignly. If not for God reaching out to ALL mankind, there would be no salvation at all. God is the first cause. God is sovereign. God requires our genuine faith in Him to escape hell. God is still sovereign. I don't see how you guys fail to see that, or else you do and cannot overcome the pride knowing you are the nebulous group known as the "elect".
     
  20. MB

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    Hi RB;
    My Friend I only used the truth of scripture. If you want to call me what ever you want it doesn't make me what you claim. Your argument isn't with me but with the Bible. Take your argument to God He wrote it.
    MB
     

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