Eve's sorrow increased: from what?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Gina B, Oct 17, 2006.

  1. Gina B

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    In Genesis 3:16 Eve is told that her sorrow and her conception will be multiplied.

    An increase seems to imply an amount already present.

    The presence of sorrow in a perfect world seems a bit odd. Logically, if there is pain, there is the possibility of death.

    Would the physical bodies of humans experience death before the fall?

    Has death and life always been only a spiritual state and not a physical one?

    :)

    I will most likely have no more participation in this thread, but simply review the replies.
     
  2. Hope of Glory

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    Both scriptural and physical evidence would suggest so. The LXX uses "thanatos" for "death" in Genesis 2:17.
     
  3. DHK

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    Before the fall there was no death.
    Before the fall there was no pain in child birth.
    Before the fall it is doubtful that there was sorrow.
    Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world where sin had not entered. God came down in the cool of the evening and walked with them. They had not known sin or any of the results of it before the fall.
    Is your question related to how they would understand "death" when God told them that "in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die, since before that time there was no death, as far as we know.
    Throughout the Bible "death" means separation. To them it could have meant separation from God, just as to most people it means separation of the spirit from the body.
    DHK
     
  4. Snitzelhoff

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    The presence of pain does not necessarily imply the presence or possibility of death. Eve could have been immortal and still felt pain. As for whether she did feel pain or not, I'm not sure, but even if she did, does that negate the concept of a perfect paradise? I suppose, but only if one were to define paradise in terms of physical pleasure--a state of unending bliss rather than a state of absolute fellowship and satisfaction with God and each other.

    Just a couple of thoughts.

    Michael
     
  5. Allan

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    Since death did come upon them both physically and spiritually with the potential of not only outliving your children (Able and most likely some others) but knowing there is the potential for them to never have a relationship with God and by their own rejection they recieve to themselves condemation (and selfishly - never seeing them again in grace but damnation).

    That to me sounds like suffering (losing fellowshp with God and recieving death) has now been multiplied. :tear:
     
  6. ituttut

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    Some thoughts.
    Pain itself does not cause death. We experience pain because we are alive. Pain in their state evidently was not as severe, or disabling. Since Eve was deceived, believing another, the process of birth had an immediate effect on her, while other happenings to their bodies would not be immediately carried out.
    As God foreknows, I would say yes.
    Adam was made of dust, and so are we. I believe these bodies were made to last for centuries, just as will happen in the millennium. But forever, I don't believe so. However we in the "Body Church", and the "Kingdom Church" will live forever in our "glorified" bodies, as Paul says in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord", I Timothy 6:19, Titus 1:2; 3:7. Paul also is the one that tells us about the "Body Church", explaining in detail that we are part of His Body, meaning we will be "like", Him, but of course, not Him.

    I personally believe we could possible be the replacements of the angels that believed Satan (one-third of them). We also find in I John 3.2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is".


    Both of these have been in heaven, and John is allowed to tell us everything, except one thing, while Paul says He "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter". So John is not sure, and we don't know if Paul knows, but cannot tell. As our resurrection's have not taken place they couldn't see a finished product, so we are left to speculate. It will be nice if we are "more than the angels", but that may be too much to wish for.
     
    #6 ituttut, Oct 18, 2006
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  7. Allan

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    I understood what you were saying but this verse doesn't support the view of us replacing the angel that fell as they were never LIKE HIM, but we WILL BE in the LIKENESS OF HIM.

    We will be GREATER than the angels and even judge them. Angels do not judge other angels or bring a railing accusation against them either. But we will!
     
  8. Deacon

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    Smart, shows wisdom. :laugh:

    I myself will jump into the fire, ....not so wise.

    There is a lot of word-play in the opening chapters of Genesis, this is one instance.

    The Hebrew word for increase or multiply is the same one used in 1:28 where we are told to “be fruitful and multiply” [r-b-h].
    So where there was once blessing, now there is pain.

    Pain can have a protective role in teaching us about our world.
    We learn not to touch a hot fire by feeling the burn of the embers.
    For those that think that the whole world was a perfect place, perhaps there may have been no need to learn things.

    Additionally, some say that the “death” in Genesis 1-2 applies only to “nephesh” or soulish life.
    Of course that could mean that there was death in this would before the fall, it might have been observed in plant life and small bacterial life.

    A companion verse that helps (some of us) to fully understand the role of death in the world is found in Romans.

    Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12 ESV

    IMO, “death” in Genesis and in Romans 5:12 is applied only to mankind.

    I'll have to reply to the "spiritual" verses "physical" aspect later in the day.

    Rob
     
  9. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

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    Let me deal briefly with the above four areas of concern you have put forward.

    1. Not all. If your knee was not having any pain and then you have a injury, your knee would have gone from a pain level of 0% to what ever percentage of pain you would like to ascribe to the injury. That is an increase nevertheless. Think about it this way, if you were living in an area where no one used to live, the population could have gone from 0 to 15. That is an increase of 15 people.

    2. There is no logic that supports your theory that because there was pain post-fall, there is death pre-fall. You are guilty here of using faulty logic. However, there may have been but the Bible does not say as much. Therefore we are only going to be speculating on a matter that is not given priority or importance and is completely hypothetical. Hypothetically anything is possible but I would say that there is not a likelihood that there would have been death prior to the fall because there was a tree of life in the garden. It seems to me that one of the reasons that Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden was due to the fact that they could have lived eternally in a state of separation from God and that was unacceptable to him.

    3. More than likely they would not for the reason that I expressed in the previous statement. Due to the fact that there was a garden with a tree of life, one could speculate that they had access to eternal life initially.

    4. Keep in mind that the knowledge of good and evil was also in the garden. Therefore one can speculate that Satan had already fallen and due to his activity in the garden one supposes that he is already the enemy in the garden. We learn from other places in Scripture that the pit of fire was prepared for Satan and his forces. Therefore, God had already decided to destroy Satan but the humans he created where not designed to fall. They were given free moral agency. They were given the choice between obedience and life or disobedience and death. We kind of know the rest of the story.
     
    #9 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Oct 18, 2006
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  10. Pastor Larry

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    The word "increase" is rabbah. It means to become great or much. It doesn't not necessarily imply an increase, though it can.
     
  11. ituttut

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    Agree Allen. John does not support my speculative personal view, nor does Paul for they are just like the angels in that they perform like the angels. One of the duties of Angels is they are messengers of God, neither adding nor subtracting from His Word.

    You make good and valid points, but the Bible does call the angels the sons of God, of which we are. Also Jesus appeared in human form as an angel. In the image of God we were formed so we are the reflection of Him. When Jesus arose He was still in His human body, and when the "rapture resurrection" occurs they will have those bodies to be glorified. We that are "caught up while still living", but dead in Him when we went to the Cross to be buried with Him, will be glorified also. We will see Him as He is, for we are "like unto Him", but the world will not, as they are not as He.

    Amen to them not being God, but we don't know what God looks like, and we don't know what angels look like. Men make idol pictures of what they believe is in heaven (which we are told not to do, but so very many do, and even some of our Baptist churches are now plastering them around in church, and in their homes). Another little thing we have picked up from the "mother church", to add to Idol Christmas, and Easter.

    God the Word became man, but no one has ever heard the voice of the Father, or seen His shape. I believe the Son stepped outside of His Father for us, and He has been known to us, in our hearts. Some day we will be able to see Jesus as He is. While no one has seen the Father but the Son, we are never the less told we can see the Father in Him. Those on earth with Jesus that saw Him also saw the Father.
    Cannot really prove or disprove that, but we know one angel was above all the rest. Satan was the covering angel, the head guy that oversaw everything. Nothing got passed him for he "covered the Throne of God". Who in scripture is able to stand before God and plead a cause? Even Michael would not take him own during Old Testament times. Only God could, and did defeat him. Can we be more than he, Satan? I don't know, but if we are more than all the rest of the angels, that is being more than an average angel.

    Who better to judge the angels than their peers? Satan was their peer, and evidently God gave to him very great power, making judgments to guard His throne. I believe Satan could judge even all the other angels, so perhaps this is the reason we will judge those fallen angels.

    I see you also enjoy speculating; as said, God allows we to speculate, for God is still a God of "mystery". Ephesians 3:8, "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ". So much is unknown, and not searchable. Perhaps what we wish, may come true.


    Reminds me of the song Frank Sinatra made famous, "Young at heart" ------ "Fairy tales can come true, it could happen to you, when you're young at heart". We will be forever young.
     
  12. Marcia

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    Posted by ituttut:
    Angels are called sons of God because they were created directly by God - they are not born into existence from mothers and fathers. We are sons of God by adoption through Jesus Christ; we are not sons of God in the same sense angels are. You are not saying we are angels, are you?

    Where??

    Many believe the phrase in the OT, "The angel of God" designates Jesus, but the word it comes from just means messenger. Angels as beings are different from humans and from Jesus.
     
  13. Gina B

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    Gotta respond to this one because he's taking this where I want it to go! :saint:

    You: 2. There is no logic that supports your theory that because there was pain post-fall, there is death pre-fall. You are guilty here of using faulty logic.

    Gina: I took the logical conclusion to an extreme, yes. Got any idea of why I did that?

    You: However, there may have been but the Bible does not say as much. Therefore we are only going to be speculating on a matter that is not given priority or importance and is completely hypothetical.

    Gina: I believe it is critical that this matter be addressed among Christians. The concepts and definitions of perfection and death can be grossly misunderstood by Christians because they are different from the commonly understood definitions of those terms. This topic addresses both of those ideas at a key point in the history of Christianity - the beginning of mankind. :)


    You: Hypothetically anything is possible but I would say that there is not a likelihood that there would have been death prior to the fall because there was a tree of life in the garden.

    Gina: Thank you! That is a very good point.
    What do consider the tree of life to have been? Was it a real, physical tree with leaves that contained properties that would heal physical wounds? Do you consider it the same as that mentioned in Revelation?

    You: It seems to me that one of the reasons that Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden was due to the fact that they could have lived eternally in a state of separation from God and that was unacceptable to him.

    Gina: Couldn't that have been accomplished by simply removing the tree of life? Wasn't the restoration accomplished by Christ? What difference did being expelled from the garden make in regards to separation from God? One touch from God could have made this garden bring forth thistles as the rest of the earth would. Do you think that the garden remained but people were removed?
     
  14. Allan

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    HUH~??

    IF you are implying what I "THINK" you are implying - (taking shoe off and cleaning my foot for the mouth just in case)

    Are you implying Man was in heaven and God removed man from His presense. (lightly putting salt on foot)

    If so, there would have been no reason to place and Angel with a sword there that would not allow man BACK IN.

    Unless of course you hold the view like Benny Hinn that man could fly and breath underwater cause if he couldn't he couldn't actually have dominion over the earth.
    (just kidding) not about Benny Hinn but you believing as he does
     
    #14 Allan, Oct 19, 2006
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  15. Allan

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    Ittutut:

    Yes the Bible does call angels the sons of God but it also calls Jesus the Son of God - so does this mean He was actually an angel but since He is the Son of God He was the head Angel. - I know you don't think that, but do you see what I'm getting at. These are titles that refer not to WHAT they litterally are, but are title corrasponding to a fuctional relationship TO God.

    Angels - sons of God - In open and have direct access to God but His servants though not in the sense of family/children

    Jesus - Son of God - In open and having direct access to God as in Family/unity

    Man - sons of God - In open and having direct access to God as in family related /adoption and therefore His literal children and with it come position & authority
    Actually man has heard the voice of the God (Father) but man has never SEEN the Father. Moses for one but we can make the immutable arguement at the baptism of Jesus and the mount of Transfiguration.

    Uh, we don't know every spiritual battle that took place but what we do know is that Michael was not allowed to overthrow Satan at that time. How do we know this, because it was Micheal and his angels that cast Satan from Heaven in Rev.
    Michael also did contend/struggle or fight with Satan over the body of Moses but WOULD NOT BRING A RAINLING ACCUSATION -

    Satan was not the Greatest of angels but was called the annointed cherub -there are different types of angels and this is just one type (Cherub, Cherubims, Seraphims, ect.). However, As beleivers yes, we do have authority over serpents (reference to Satan) and (reference to demons) scorpions (though not the charismatic view per-say) and not due to us but to Christ IN us. Greater is He that is IN you than he that is IN the world. We can overcome Satan.
    Appently all angels come before the presence of God as in Job. Angels are Gods emissaries and therefore able to approach Him especially if it was their particular function.

    Actually, it is not an unknown or unknowable fact. Take this scripture:
    This is speaking of Jesus being begotten [Gr. gennao] of God (Metaphore - in the Jewish sense - one ordained [begotten/unique] to bring others to His way of life)

    Man is also begotten [Gr. gennao] of God and place adoption wise as His ligitimate children and therefore heirship is conveyable to us and is done so.
    Since Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, so we to are seated WITH Christ (authority) in the Heavenlies. We know we have thrones as well which speak to that authority given us in heirship and thus our title Kings and Priest of God and why Christ is called King of kings and Lord (ruler) of lords. Angels were never and will never be offered such authority and power.
    And WE will come back to rule and riegn with Him!

    Lastly, they are ministering spirits to God and to us. The scripture below shows that though it is in the future were we will fully attain that heirship but it is in this NOW that they minister to us based upon our future status and authority. Just as we are ministers unto God as they are, yet they are also ministers unto us, but this ministering is not vise versa.
    Remember: Power rests in authority not ability. :type:
     
    #15 Allan, Oct 19, 2006
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  16. Pastor Larry

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    The "angel of the Lord" is called YHWH and is worshipped in Scripture (Judges 6, I believe is one, though i am going from memory). YHWH takes human form only in Jesus. That means that "the angel of the Lord" is YHWH.
     
  17. 2BHizown

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    The multiplication and increase is in the fact that the sin of Eve would be multiplied out to posterity, over and over from that one original sin! For by one man sin entered the world and by one Man.........

    Eve's portion is via childbearing and this became the increase for all women for all time!
     
  18. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

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    1. Actually to say you took it to its logical extreme is to assume that the logic holds which it does not. As I have shown you to increase in pain does not in anyway necessarily assume that there was a degree of pain prior to the fall. In a hypothetical sense you could say that let's assume that child birth would have been painful but we have no way of knowing what child birth was like prior to the fall. All we know now is that it will be painful post-fall. And no I do not profess to know why you did make that assumption and since I am not clairvoyant, I do not presume to know what anyone else is thinking.:confused:

    2. The key to eternal life. If it healed physical wounds that would imply pain and suffering, so you are asking a trick question. Yet I know where you are going with this one and will address it in your question on Rev. Yes, I believe that it is the same tree in the book of Rev. It says so as much in 2:7.

    3. God had given Adam and Eve clear instructions that they were forbidden to eat the fruit. He also told them that they would die if they disobeyed. In order for Adam and Eve to die they had to be removed from the garden. The tree of life evidently has a lasting place in the paradise of God because we still read about it in the book of Revelation. Who am I to question the manner in which God does things. I can only assume that the way God did it was the only or best way to handle their rebellion and be true to his own character.

    4. Sure, Christ's restoration is even mentioned in Gen. 3:15.

    5. It clearly signified a corruption in man's relationship to God. It signifies the consequence of the fall.

    6. I do not think that the garden is still in its pristine condition here on earth somewhere. Does God have a paradise awaiting those who believe? You can rest assure he does. Keep in mind that God will remake heaven and earth. In principle that garden exists, but it is not here at present.
     
  19. ituttut

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    You just said angles are called sons of God, and also we in Him are sons of God. Look at what I said, and all you did was just repeat it, agreeing, so I don't know why you take issue with what I said. After agreeing you then ask, "You are not saying we are angels, are you?

    But to answer your question I contend we are sons of God, and angels are sons of God. He created the angels, and then He created we, a little "lower" than the angels. We are going to be a little better than the angels, so there is a good possibility we will be a little "higher" than the angels. This is more in line of what I believe.
    Genesis 22:11-12, "And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Kinda looks like the "angel of the Lord" could be Jesus. But to make sure we need to continue reading. Once we get started it sure is hard to stop, as we study His Word.

    Genesis 22:15-16, "And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,16. And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17. That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

    To me, this identifies the "Angel of the Lord", as Jesus, but see Him in "human form"? No, I don't believe we can say that here. But Numbers, chapter 22 certainly shows Balaam saw the "Angel of the Lord", and Judges 6 certainly shows the Angel of the Lord, is our Lord.
     
  20. ituttut

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    Part 1
    I believe the "Word" needed to appear to man in angel form, as God is Spirit. For we to see Him, the "Word" had to step outside of God as the "angel of God". Evidently the majority of angels look something akin to us, for the angels are seen as "men" that look like us, walk like us, talk like us, and they eat and drink like us. The "Word" took on the form of a "son of God".
    Do you have a "son"? If so, I hope you do not just think of him as your servant. I would believe him to be a family member, unless you disinherit him. Yet all of His serve Him.
    The Word of God is the only part of God that is made God's only Son by issue of Himself. God "The Word" had to be obedient to Himself, remaining God as He became "man" into a sinful world, by a sinful body (Mary). The "Word" debased Himself in order to "reconcile those in the world that are His, and we find these things in the "dispensational" gospel of Paul. Without "this dispensation we today live in", there could be no reconciliation of God. "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
    26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    28. Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
    29. Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily"", Colossians 1:25-29.

    It is God that has reconciled us as the "Word" became flesh. "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him", II Corinthians 5:18-21.
    We are family, yet we serve Him. Our position is in Him, under His authority. We have no authority of ourselves, but the Father speaks and we obey, as dutiful sons will do.
    Good point/s, but Satan is able to approach God as a "son" in the OT (Job 1:6-7) in the spirit. God came to Moses, Moses being in the flesh. It is only today that we can approach the Father in Spirit, for we are of the heavenlies, and it is made possible only as we come in the name of, and the person of our Lord Jesus Christ. Those in the "Body Church" are able to do this for we are in the "Body of Christ", and before Damascus Road this was impossible. We know nothing of "The Body of Christ" until we know of the gospel of Paul. This information was not available to any until Romans 7:4, "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."
    You are right to an extent, and perhaps you know Revelation reference is future, and we are also to understand Michael is the Angel of Israel (Daniel 12:1), God's nation, His people. But what I was talking about in Old Testament times is of "standing" with God. Michael could not completely handle Satan. It was a "stand still". But Michael did have the "upper hand", that Ace in the Hole - " The Lord rebuke thee".

    Also please notice your reference of Michael ousting Satan is not just of words, but a moving from heaven to earth. Michael the "arch angel" for Israel and his angel, remove Satan and his angels from heaven.

    The Book of Revelation is not about us, but about Israel, and that is what the Old Testament is about, Israel. The "church" or the "Body Church" is not involved. Jesus tells us He came only for His own people. This is why it is imperative that we are listen to the only Apostle we (Gentile and Jew today) have in this "dispensation" of grace. We are not Israel, looking for that "Kingdom to come".

    Michael would not and could not overtake the power of Satan. It is the Lord that has to rebuke Him. Michael gave Satan his best shot, but then had to turn Satan over to the Lord, and the Lord said "nothing doing". The Lord cut the debate off, refusing the argument of Satan. But this is not always so, for God has allowed Satan some of his wishes.
    This anointed Cherub (not plural-Cherubims) would put his throne above that of God. I cannot make light of this "blessed" cherub. These of judgment are more, they being angel, also lion, ox, eagle, and man. These beings (along with the Seraphim, that hover above the throne, burning, and shouting holiness) have much different bodies, and activities than man.

    I can't overcome Satan, as he is too powerful. Why is there war in heaven? Can you name any other being that has brought sin into the world, and is able to make war against God? Who has such great power, but not equal to God? I believe what scripture tells me, and I suppose this perhaps is what you mean by "we can overcome Satan”. Acts 16:16-18, "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
    17. Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
    18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

     

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