Evolutionism vs the Gospel

It's hard to talk about science without mentioning science.

That's about as possible as making it as a thread for Christian metallurgy vs. the Word of God.
As you've learned, the Word of God is completely consistent with evolution. How could it be otherwise?

I don't know about "Evolutinism" (no one seems to know what that is) but it's pretty obvious that evolutionary theory, solid state electronics, etc. were not suitable subjects for God's message to man about Him and us and our salvation.

Haven't heard anyone say the Bible teaches in favor of "evolutionism." However, Christians generally accept that it's consistent with evolution.

A minority. But it's not important to one's salvation, so you can relax about it.

It's not an orthodox view, but there are people of piety, wisdom, and intelligence on both sides of the question.

I have yet to meet a fully intelligent man. Only God is "fully intelligent." Man's fall is quite true, although I'm pretty sure you don't like the way it happened.

 

Let me start this thread by re-posting from my summary in the other thread.

 

There is a very simple explanation concerning the evening and the morning prior to the LORD's creation of the "lights" to rule both day and night and the stars. God was dividing his creation into moments of EQUAL time periods. A 24 hour period remains a 24 hour period whether there are sun, moon, and stars or not. We have the reference of a year for the earth to go around the sun; however, anywhere in the universe earth time would remain earth time.
GOD designed time not man, and HE set the rotations to fit HIS conception of the time HE created.

The Orthodox Jew believes very differently from the Reform Jew and there are groups within groups. The simple fact is if a Jew doesn't have it right where it concerns his Messiah, why should he be any better at understanding his Genesis story. It is the Holy Spirit that brings the ENLIGHTENMENT and not secular education. To GOD, only the enlightenment that comes from HIM is not secular. Your or my perspective of a topic holds no weight in GOD's eyes.

 

We know, from a number of different sources of evidence, that the length of the day has changed significantly over time.

God didn't make days to be eternally the same.

And "yom", as noted before, can mean any particular length of time in ancient Hebrew.

 

It's hard for a Creationist to believe evolution because it contradicts so much of scripture.

In fact, we have already seen that The Galatian does not believe in the Bible, or at least that is the impression we get from his posts. He has stated that that he doesn't believe the majority of what is written in the Bible, or at least that he is able to determine which parts he can believe or not -

GALATION: Fact is, it nowhere says six literal 24 hour (solar) days. You've been misled. Go and look. Not there.</font>[/QUOTE]In fact this is AFTER I showed him that the word YOM was used, and that in the Hebrew scripture, whenever YOM is used in condjunction with a number, or with the word morning, or with the word evening, it always means a literal, ordinary day. Each day of creation is marked with "And the evening, and the morning were the [number] day".

Genesis 1 & 2 describe six of these liteal 24 hour days where God created every living thing on the earth.

The 10 commandments confirm this -

Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

So everything was created and reproduces after it's own kind. We see nine kinds mentioned (including man). The New Testament also supports this idea - that organisms are not all of the same ancestry genetically:

1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

For one thing - time was created on day 1. This means the passing of time began to happen. We have light, which is separated from darkness. We have the rotation of the earth. We know that the earth got form - meaning the natural laws of universe of gravity, for example, were in place. With the rotation of the earth, we know that any fixed light source could give us evening, morning, and observable passage of time. Because light was already created and separated from darkness, the rotation of the earth can give evening and morning.

This is extremely foolish. We can see from the Bible that, not only is a completely different story given than evolution, but ALL CHRISTIANS mentioned in the Bible were under the impression that Genesis was accurate and true - inclusing Jesus and Paul. Consider that if these two were incorrect in what they believed, then your salvation is worthless.

If you can throw out Genesis as a fairy tale, then you can throw out Jesus as a fairy tale.

The Galation believes that the Word of God (the Bible) is a marvellous fairy tale. He believes that Genesis 1 (account of creation) didn't happen. He believes that Genesis 6-8 (the flood) is also a fairy tale. He believes that Genesis 5 and 10 are false (the geneologies).

The Galatian would have you believe that the OT law was wrong and false - I remind you that the 10 commandments repeat that the earth was created in six literal days.

The Galatian would have you believe that Jesus and Paul are both false teachers that preach lies. Jesus is fond of quoting Genesis (which Galatian has already declared false) and so is Paul.

However, the Galatian somehow expects us to believe that he is a Christian - a follower of christ - yet he challenges both the Father and the Son as false. (remember that the 10 commandments are directly from the voice of God the Father).

He has reasoned himself out of his own belief. He has undermined his own faith.

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

-- yet the Galatian dismisses the Law -- the 10 commandments anyway. I wonder what Jesus thinks of that? Lets look 2 verses earlier and find out.

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Also, Galatian, you keep trying to give this false assertion that the majority of Christians believe evolution. This just isn't the case. In fact, until I came to this message board, i had never met any. I have been going to church since I was 3, an average of 3 services a week, and I had never met a christian who believed in evolution. So, while you may hold particular belief, it is wrong of you to attempt to speak for all ... or even a majority ... of christians.

I admire your honesty. So we can see then, that the clearest, plainest interpretation remains the literal translation. Even you believed it when you were a young Christian. You must see, UTE, that your faith was put in doubt by the world and it's system of beliefs. The Bible in no way advocates evolution or that worldview. So then, you were convinced by the world, as was Eve in the Garden.

The beautiful thing about being a christian is that there is grace for detours such as yours. God will visit you and continue to love you regardless. However, you must see the error of your ways. You are not only following a wrong path for yourself, but you may also happen to influence someone else to stumble and fall away from Faith in Christ. They may not be as strong as you in your commitment to Christ, regardless of your disbelief in portions of scripture. Someone else may come upon your words before they reach that commitment and relationship with Christ and will certainly fall away - as dismissing any part of scripture undermines the whole and leads to rejection of the whole.

I can't help but think how you would benefited greatly by wonderful ministries such as Answers in Genesis when you were younger. Before your decision to turn to the world for answers instead of trusting in the infallible, absolute truth of the Bible.

I would encourage you, UTEOTW, to go to www.answersingenesis.org and read the Q & A section in it's entirety. The spirit which lives in you cries out for this truth and I am confident that in going there and reading it (even if you have read some of the articles before) your spirit will be blessed and encouraged. Your faith will increase exponentially, and your reading comprehension of scripture will also increase.

You need to take a good step outside your condition and re-examine this issue with prayer and study. There are now many more answers available from a science standpoint that - while not as mature as many evolutionary theories - are at the very least possible. I promise you will not be disappointed!! Imagine how delightful it will be when we are scientifically advanced enough when we are scientifically able to proclaim that the Bible is true from the first word to the last. Well, you won't have to imagine very much after a thorough examination of the AiG site and it's Q&A section. It will start you onto a path of the highest level of belief in the written Word then you have ever experienced. Imagine having the ability to witness to your unsaved scientific friends without having to hold half of the Word behind your back. To show them the whole of scripture and how it is possible, true, and how the God that created and did all this is interested in a personal relationship with Him.

Bravo, and Here Here!

 

As I noted, by the context, we can see that there is only ONE clear and definitive intended meaning. These are literal, ordinary days.

 

It contradicts some of the extra doctrines some people have added to scripture. But not to scripture as it's written.

Rest assured that Barbarian believes in the Bible, as it is written. He objects to additional doctrines being added.

 

I don't remember anyone saying He "had" to do anything. He chose to do it.

Actually, it appears that He didn't mention many kinds of natural phenomena, because they weren't really important to the Word He was giving us.

If it had been essential for us to understand evolution or organic chemistry, I'm sure He would have been able to tell us.

What an odd question. Why would you think truth was relative?

I don't think anyone knows that, but God. I suppose He would have used things we know about today, as used things people knew about then. Whether or not any particular phenomenon would have been mentioned, I don't know.

 

Galatian: "It contradicts some of the extra doctrines some people have added to scripture. But not to scripture as it's written."

You say you object to doctrines people have added to scripture.

Does this mean that by reading the Bible alone, in a straightforward way, that you would come to the conclusion that God created through/using/by evolution? You would reject a "literal" 6-day creation in favor of a so-many billions of years creation with no other information?


If so, which scriptures specifically would lead you to an evolutionary conclusion?

If not, then you are adding to the scripture to support your belief and are guilty of "adding doctrines" to scripture yourself.

You seem to think that only those with the necessary "scientific" knowledge can rightly divide the word. If perfect "scientific" knowledge were necessary for us to comprehend God's revelation, why didn't he provide it?

Is that loving, merciful, etc.?

 

Bob,

This is a good question. And YES this IS the most difficult for evolutionists to answe BECAUSE of the NT references to Adam.

Several things about Genesis 1. I agree with you that YOM means a day. YOM does have other meanings, but in this case it means a 24 hour day. Seeing a YOM as an "epoch", or a million year period is quite unseemly and would be very uncharacteristic for early Hebrew writing. The question is whether or not the account is meant to be figurative, designed to counter some of the near eastern creation epics like Enuma Elish.

I have never had a problem with this argument at all. Do we need proof to believe God's word???

No.

If a Christian wants to believe in a young earth based on a literal Genesis 1 then fine! Science will never be able to 100% prove anything about the beginnings of the earth.

On the other side of the coin...

If one chooses to interact with science then it must be done truthfully! The evidence points to an old earth whether we like it or not!

 

Barbarian on God's creation:
It contradicts some of the extra doctrines some people have added to scripture. But not to scripture as it's written."

Yes, it actually has kept people from coming to God, and has caused other Christians to lose their faith when they discovered that these added doctrines could not be true.

It means, for example, even though reading the Bible would not make you aware of electrons, any doctrine that declares electrons false on scriptural grounds is man's addition. That applies to evolution, solid state electronics, natural selection, or anything else.

There are two reasons to do so:

1. The text itself clearly says it is literal, since a literal reading of Genesis gives you logical contradictions

2. The evidence God has given you in creation itself clearly refutes a young Earth.

It seems perverse to deny His testimony to us. However, it's not a salvation issue.

Scripture is not a science text. Even though scripture does not tell me about frame shift mutations, God has give us minds and curiosity to find these things, if we need.

Evolutionary theory is a science. We conclude it's right, because the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it. And because it is consistent with scripture. You might as well say that electricity was adding doctrines.

The Word is accessible, precisely because God did not make it a science text. It's a simple message to man, about God and about our relationship with Him. Don't try to add all sorts of other things.

It's not. My objection is those adding things to scripture, not those who realize that it's not about science.

If I could cause even one person to keep his faith, because he didn't think he had to believe in man's doctrine of creationism, that would be the most loving and merciful thing I could do.

That's happened, BTW. And it is the accomplishment for which I am most grateful.

 

Yet I have shown you verse upon verse supporting the YEC position, and you and all other evolutionists have already claimed that evolution is entirely unsupported by scripture.

This means that you are believing the evolutionist worldview over the Biblical world view in spite of a complete lack of Biblical support. Whereas, I have shown you verse after verse that describes the YEC position.

Clearly, you take the word of man as more authroitative than the word of God. You are one for which it is written "casting down imaginations that exhault themselves against the knowlege of God". Evolution exhalts itself as a direct contradiction to scripture. Clearly, you have stated that you do not believe the Word.

So then, we can see that you also do not believe in Jesus Christ.

You have alrady demonstrated that you do not believe the word as it is written. For anyone to deny the plainly written text in the Bible advocating a young earth is foolishness. It is there, and no ammount of wishing or hand waiving on your part can change that.

You have said that you do not believe in a literal six day creation, yet this is exactly what the text says:

Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Clearly, you do not believe the Bible is true. Therefore, because Jesus Christ and his teachings are based upon Genesis and the rest of scripture, we can deduce that you do not believe in Jesus Christ.

I am sorry, friend. Your atheistic, humanistic teachers had an agenda and did not tell you the truth. The actual fact of the matter is that they are literal days. The days in Genesis 1 have no other possible meaning but ordinary days. Moreover, the context (and plain reading) of other scripture holds this to be true (such as Exodus 20:11).

I have shown you repeatedly how the days in Genesis actually man literal, ordinary days. There is not denying it. You can choose to ignore the Biblical evidence if you wish, but this will not sheild you from being wrong. In fact, your eternal destiny depends on your belief in scripture. You are trying to continue your sharade of serving two masters. This thread has exposed your true master.

Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We have seen in this thread which master you hold to. You even try to deny words written in scripture to justify your position.

Your actions are directly influenced by the King of Darkness. You are a liar as is your master.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Like the serpent, you have directly contradicted God's word. You have also now been exposed as a liar.

There is no need for the sun, only a fixed light source. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Time is not dependent on our Sun. Time is dependent on Light. Morning and evening do not require our sun, they only require light. Again, we have demonstrated that light was prsent... therefore evening and morning are literally possible.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

We have already demonstrated how neither of these verses (Genesis or Exodus) are allegorical. Furthermore your description of these verses as allegorical serves to demonstrate more fully your disblief of the Bible and scripture. For example, you have called the Law in Exodus (the 10 commandments) allegorical.

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The context of the kinds is clear.

So the Bible isn't an allegorical fairy tale? Please, by all means let me know if you think the Bible is literal. This would be a marvellous and wonderful change of heart for you.

I am not here putting words in your mouth. It is you who are making these rediculous claims. I am simply exposing your lies to the light of truth. If that light hurts your eyes or pride, I am sorry and apologize. It is not me who exposes the lie but the spirit of truth within me illuminating your falsehood.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Like the Serpent, you can contiue to contradict scripture. But repitition will not give your lies any more truth.

Yet again you deny plainly, clearly written scripture. If this is fairy tale, (the 10 commandments) then the law is fairy tale, and he who came to fulfil the law (Jesus) is also fairy tale.

I don't know what religion you are touting, but it is not christianity.

How can you believe this? This comes from that Book of allegory and fairy tale.

In fact, Jesus and Paul both quote Genesis as literal, yet you claim it is not. So then, you have dismissed not only Genesis, but Jesus and Paul's teachings as allegorical, non-literal, fairy tale.

The facts can speak for themselves. You have claimed that Genesis is not true, and that it is allegorical rather than acutal. You believe it is a nice story.

However, you claim Evolution... a position that contradicts scripture (allegorical or literal interpretations) to be fact. You recognize that the Bible does not advocate evolution in any way, het you are willing to dismiss so much of scripture to believe the word of man above the Word of God.

No, that is a lie, also. </font>[/QUOTE]I think not. You have already described how the world was not created in six days. Again lets look at the actual scripture.

Exd 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So you have called the Father a liar.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

Jesus quotes Genesis 1 as literal. So you have called Jesus, the Son, a liar.

Perhaps you will one day see the error of your way and see that you cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve God and man. Creation is the Word of God, evolution is of the mind of man. I stand upon the Word.

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

I will indeed unashamedly resist the work of Satan. Including those who would come to destroy the Word as a wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

Do you not know, or haven't you heard? The Bible still contains prophecy that has YET to happen. Therefore, God knew the intelligence of the people he wsa writing to in the day that the scripture was written. It is absolute truth. It is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Meaning that even when we die and all things are revealed it will be exactly as it is written today.

The religion of Evolution has kept FAR FAR more people from becoming or remaining christians than has any other false doctrine. We can see in the United States alone that we have gone from a Bible-based society to one that espouses the abcence of christianity in all sects of public and private life. Evolution has advanced the religions of atheism and agnosticism and advanced the secular agenda into nearly every public arena.

Fool. The explosion of knowlege known as the beginning to the 'age of reason' was faciliitated and perpetrated by Creationists. Young Earth Creationists such as Robert Boyle who was amoung the first with atomic theories, and other Young Earth Creationists, such as Isaac Newton.

Robert Boyle, for example, (who wrote - The Christian Virtuoso) gave credit to the creator and Genesis as the inspiration to his theories and discoveries. In The Christian Virtuoso, Boyle advocates the view that nature is a clocklike mechanism that had been made and set in motion by the Creator at the beginning and now functions according to secondary laws, which could be studied by science. Unlike the modern evolutionists who think that the most convincing evidence is that which is natural, Boyle recognized that these were secondary to the Word of God.

While true, it is not a salvation issue, it does undermine the very scriptures that are a salvation scriptures to hold evolution instead of God's word in Genesis as truth. To dismiss a literal Genesis is to build the salvation scriptures on a foundation of sand, rather than on a solid rock.

No, but it is ultimate and absolute truth. So where it touches on science and history, you can trust it's accuracy and truth.

Has also given us the information and tools necessary to verify the Word as literal and true scientifically... something that YEC do every day. This very world proclaims and affirms a literal Genesis. But you are too blinded by your fear of man and secular humanism to see that.

In fact, evolution is entirely a contradiction to scripture. Scripture says six literal days, evolution says millions of years. Scripture says God form man form the dust, evolution says man evolved from apes. Scripture gives geneologies leading from the creation of the earth and universe to Jesus in the span of 4000 years. Evolution puts this span at billions of years. God says in scripture that he created animals (such as whales or cattle) as discreet creatures in the space of a single day. Evolution claims it took millions of years and they evolved from the same ancestor.

So we can see that evolution is entirely inconsistent with the scriptures.

Are you one those psyco people who think that if they lock a person up and chain them to the wall in their basement they are protecting them in love? In fact, undermining scripture is not a means to protecting scripture. Giving people the turth and letting them experience God is a far better approach. Instead of giving up the battle against the lie, continue to fight for truth and show a clear, unified, inerrant, true Bible.

In case you still don't get it. Evolution is false and not true. How do I know? Because the Bible tells me so. Jesus loves us... how do I know... because the Bible tells me so. Believing in Jesus will save you from Hell... how do I know, because the Bible tells me so.

In your world, you think the following:

Galatians crazy world:
Evolution is true, even though the bible says it is not. Jesus will save you from hell because the bible says it is.

How can you build your faith on an allegorical fairy tale? The Bible says you can't....

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If the foundation is allegorical and non-literal, so is the whole. If the foundation is true and absolute, so is the whole.

 

"If the foundation is allegorical and non-literal, so is the whole. If the foundation is true and absolute, so is the whole."

I would certainly disagree with this statement. Writing styles of nomadic semites in 1500 BC differ vastly from the flexible Greek and clear evangelistic focus of the NT.

Also what do you mean by allegory? The term allegory in theological use tends to convey the idea of symbolic story. It is not reasonable to see the timeline of Genesis as symbolic of longer time periods. The question is whether or not it was meant to give a factual and historical account. The passage is obviously not symbolic.

 

As even early theologians pointed out, Genesis cannot be literal, since a literal reading produces logical contradictions.

 

Scientific theories incorporated within the text of the Scriptures do not necessarily endorse the specific theory. This is a point that ‘young earth’ and ‘old earth' creationists often fail to grasp. We are frequently working with various texts in Scripture that may (or more probably may not) deal with the topic of origins. We often bend these texts into meaning what the author never intended them to mean.

It is very conceivably that the Hebrews of the time believed that the world was flat. It is even conceivable that aspects of that worldview were incorporated into the Scriptures. Even if it was so, this doesn’t mean the Bible teaches this.

Norman Giesler and William Nix, in their book, “A General Introduction to the Bible, Revised and expanded (Moody Press, 1996, 1986, p58.) writes:

Rob