(ex) Cardinal Ratzinger is the new pope

Ratzinger on other churches, from his Dominus Iesus (2000)

SOURCE

Those outside the Catholic Church or a church which hold to the valid Episcopate and recognise transubstantion are not churches. Altough they do acknowledge that we have an "imperfect union" with the Catholic.

No thanks Ratzinger. I can live without your "imperfect union."

 

Matt
My hero!

Roger
I could try to get cardinal Willebrands drunk and have him anoint you patriarch of the UBC (Unified Batist Church).
Afterwards the first thing we do is introducing Transubstantion as a new baptist distinctive. And we're a Real Church(TM)!

What?

 

We would still no be as good as Rome, adn they would claim with typical Roman arrogance that we "derive [our] efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church."

Nice idea though .

 

This new Pope is certainly not noted for his ecumenical attitude, but even he recognizes Baptists as Christians. Therefore, those who write that the Roman Catholic Church teaches salvation only through Her are clearly mistaken.

Both true Roman Catholics and true Baptists are saved through faith in what Christ did for us on the cross; we are NOT saved through faith in Roger’s (C4K) personal theological constructs.

 

The new Pope says Baptists can't go to a "real church" because of course they ARE Baptist after all! But they can get to purgatory safely - to suffer and endure as long as needed given the fact that they were not actually church members in this life.

And of course the RCC is clear on the fact that non-Catholics CAN NOT get to heaven via the NEW COVENANT!

And the other thing we are "CLEAR" on - is that all the smoke that was blown about the RCC being one of MANY major Christian groups killing the saints all through the dark ages is total nonesense -- what is funny is the way the wanna-bees leap on to that RC straw man like it "had substance".

Down right entertaining!

Many thanks to both of them.

 

BobRyan,

No, the Dark Ages is post Pagan Europe. The sites I posted each place a time frame "between 63 B.C. and A.D. 476." This is not considered the Dark Ages.

------------

mioque,

Beyond the Eastern Orthodox there was the kingdoms that made up the Orientel Orthodox i.e. Ehtiopia, Assyria, etc... None of these kingdom where under the control of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

SouthernBoy
The Eastern-Orthodox always were more under the influence of the Byzantine emperor than under that of the pope. They certainly count as seperate Christian empire when it comes to beating up the folks that used different theological constructs from theirs.
The Oriental-Orthodox are a smaller group but they too have some persecutions to their name.

 

Finally. We agree on something!

I'll take it!

---------------------------

AS for the quotes I provided from your own link - I believe they remain valid.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Although you may not want to recognize this sequence of 4 empires as "world empires" that sequence is what the scripture in Dan 2, 7, Rev 13 etc seems to go for.


Your second source refers to my stated view as follows

What it does not do is highlight the fact that by leaving the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 in tact we are doing with that Messianic timeline the SAME thing that we do with ALL OTHER timelines in the Bible - "leaving it in tact" so that it can be used.

In fact Dan 9 has TWO timelines. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Dan 9:"1-3 and the 70 weeks (490 years) of 9:25-27.

Both timelines have to "remain in tact" to use them AS one does ALL OTHER timelines in the Bible. (I.E. - Exegetically sound).

But as you say - some do not go for that idea.

</font>[/QUOTE]Yep! The pointe "remain".

 

In Daniel 7 it is "OUT OF" the 4th empire (which is the Pagan Roman Empire) that something NEW happens.

It splits into 10 and an 11th one comes up wiping out 3 of the primary 10 divisions.

It becomes "exceedingly great" by comparison to the Greek and pagan Roman empires.

Fascinating. All that should happen AFTER the Pagan Roman empire .

According to Catholic sources the NEXT world empire following Pagan Rome - to EXCEED the domain and power of Pagan Rome - was Papal Rome.

Or are they wrong?

 

"According to Catholic sources the NEXT world empire following Pagan Rome - to EXCEED the domain and power of Pagan Rome - was Papal Rome.

Or are they wrong?"
"
Yes they are.
Next world empire in the region is either the Byzantine Empire, or the early Islamic empire.
Depending on one's p.o.v.

 

I guess it is "you" that is wrong.

I never thought you would go against obvious history in such a public and exposed way Mioque. Neither the Turks nor the Islamic empire EVER occupied ALL of the territory of Pagan Rome.

Period.

Seconly - the fact that the Roman Christians sacked Constantinople on the way back from the Crusades (as a jesture) kinda puts a kabash on the "wishful revisionist history" you have spun.

You usually try to cover better than that.

Are you ok?

 

BobRyan,

What Rome are we talking about Pagan Rome (i.e. before Constantine) or Catholic Rome (i.e. After Constantine)?

Let me clarify my position:
1. The Dark Ages is the time from Constantine forward.

Thus, the empire spoken about in Daniel is Pre-Constantine.

 

Maybe there would be something in here that someone might find helpful....


1. Daniel 9:24-26 "Seventy weeks are determined upon Thy people and upon Thy holy city...Know therefore and understand, that
from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks,
and threescore and two weeks..."
Command given in 457 BC by king Artaxerxes to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem (see Ezra 7:11-28.


2. There are 7 days in 1 week, or 49 days in 7 weeks. The temple was finished in 408 BC, taking 49 years to rebuild it. Hence it
appears that 49 days and 49 years are synonymous, or each day for a year (see Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6).


3. Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks (490 days/years) are determined..." "Determined" translates "cut off" (Strong's Concordance #2852,
and this is the only time this word is used), so 70 weeks are cut off, but from what? It would have to be cut off from a larger time
prophecy found in the Bible--or the 2300 day/year prophecy found in Daniel 8:13-14: "Unto 2300 days (years), then shall the
sanctuary be cleansed."


4. Daniel 9:24-25 "...to anoint the most Holy...the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (49 days/years), and threescore and
two weeks (434 days/years)..."
Jesus Christ was anointed with the oil of joy or gladness (Isaiah 61:1-3; Psalms 45:7; Luke 4:18-21) which symbolized
the Holy Spirit anointing Jesus (Matthew 3:13-17) to preach the good news of the gospel of grace, enabling us to unite with divinity
and become free from committing all sins.


5. Daniel 9:26-27 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself...in the midst of the week
(3 1/2 days/years) He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."
Christ was the foundation and antitype of the whole Jewish economy of sacrifices, ceremonies, feasts, and etc. All these
symbols or types pointed, as a shadow, to Christ. When He was crucified in 31 AD or "cut off" in the midst of the last week--
3 1/2 years after He had begun His gospel ministry--type met antitype. Thus Christ caused the sacrifice, oblation, feasts,
and all the other types in the Jewish economy to cease to be literally kept and performed.
These ceremonies and types were given to point forward to Christ as being the Messiah. But since Christ has already come,
and type has met antitype, these types would only possess spiritual significance, and not the command to be literally kept; they
would continue pointing to Christ, but would not bear the penalty of sin if not literally kept. And any today who advocate that God's
people must literally resume keeping any of the Jewish economy's types, are actually denying that Christ is the Messiah,
the antitype of all in the Jewish economy!
Christ realized He was the antitype of the Jewish feasts, etc., and hence, during His ministry, He did not keep many of the
feasts (see Desire of Ages, p 450); yet Christ was not a commandment breaker--He was "without sin" (Hebrews 4:15).
"Christ was the foundation of the whole Jewish economy, which was a symbol prescribed in type for the religious faith and
obedience of all people" Manuscript 130, November 27, 1901 (Manuscript Release #499, p 1).


"We have yet to learn that the whole Jewish economy is a compacted prophecy of the gospel. It is the gospel in figures..."
Manuscript 130, November 23, 1897 (Manuscript Release #313, p 1).


"They (Jews) did not realize that type met antitype in the death of Jesus Christ....they could not see the perfect fulfillment of the
Jewish economy, instituted and established by Christ and pointing to Him as the substance" Fundamentals of Christian
Education, p 398.


6. The 70 weeks (490 days/years) ended in 34 AD with the stoning of Stephen--the first martyr since Christ. But was all of Daniel
9:24-27 accomplished by that time?


--"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins."
"Finish" translates "restrain" (Strong's #3067), and "transgression" translates "rebellion or sin" (Strong's #6588). Also, "If we
confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1 John 1:9. Christ has
provided a way that rebellion or sin against God can be forever restrained and ceased through His power, and also to have our
past, confessed and forsaken sins forgiven. Thus sins would have an end.


--"to make reconciliation for iniquity."
"Reconciliation means that every barrier between the soul and God is removed, and that the sinner realizes what the
pardoning love of God means. By reason of the sacrifice made by Christ for fallen men, God can justly pardon the transgressor
who accepts the merits of Christ" Selected Messages, book 1, p 396.


Sin caused a gulf to occur between humanity and God (Isaiah 59:1-2), but Christ bridged this gulf and brought us back into
communion and fellowship with our Father!


--"to bring in everlasting righteousness."
"Men will learn of the reconciliation for iniquity and of the everlasting righteousness which the Messiah has brought in through
His sacrifice. The cross of Calvary is the great center. This truth acted upon will make Christ's sacrifice effectual....By the
humiliation of the cross He was to bring in everlasting deliverance to all who would walk after Him, giving positive evidence
that they are separated from the world" Bible Commentary, vol 4, p 1172-73.


By uniting ourselves with divinity and using our will in determined efforts against temptation and sin, as did our Saviour,
we might be everlastingly freed from the bondage of sin to live perfect, righteous lives!


--"to seal up the vision and prophecy."
"To seal" translates "to close up, make an end" (Strong's #2856). The 70 week vision and prophecy was sealed up or ended
by 34 AD!


--"to anoint the most Holy."
Yes, Jesus, the most Holy, was anointed (see #4)!


--"confirm covenant with many for one week."
Which covenant? From 27-31 AD (3 1/2 years), the old covenant; and from 31-34 AD, the new covenant--but it's principles
are one in the same--to restore man into God's image by writing His law in our hearts and minds (Proverbs 3:3, 7:3; Jeremiah
24:6-7, 17:10). The old covenant centered around a high priest in the earthly sanctuary consisting of 2 apartments. The new
covenant centers around Jesus as our high Priest in the heavenly sanctuary consisting of 2 apartments (Hebrews 8:1-13,
10:10-22)!


7. Christ, after His ascension, began His ministration for the errors or the sins of ignorance of His people (Hebrews 9:7; Early
Writings, p 254), in which of the two apartments of the heavenly sanctuary? "He entered in once into the holy place (first
apartment)" Hebrews 9:1-12.
In the first apartment of the earthly sanctuary, upon the altar, was where the blood of the slain innocent lamb was placed for
the sins of the people. These sins remained in the holy place all year until the day of atonement, when these would then be
taken into the second apartment by the high priest to be completely forgiven by God and removed from the sanctuary, thus
cleansing it.
While Christ was on this earth, the atonement for sin could not have been completed--not even at the cross! The sacrifice
and spilt blood of the innocent Lamb of God did take place, but Christ could not officiate before the Father as our High Priest in
the heavenly sanctuary and cover our confessed and forsaken sins with His blood, until after His ascension (Hebrews 8:4). So,
after Christ's ascension in 31 AD, He began ministering as our high Priest in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary.
This first phase of Christ's ministration was to continue until the 2300 days/years ended in 1844. Then He would begin
ministrating in the second apartment commencing the antitypical day of atonement. Here an investigative judgment would take
place into the lives of all His people--first for the dead, then for the living (Revelation 11:18)--and their confessed and forsaken
sins would be forgiven and removed until this second phase ends unexpectedly, thus cleansing the sanctuary of all sins.


8. What took place between 34 AD and 1844? "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily (sacrifice "does not belong to
the text"--Early Writings, p 74), and the transgression (abomination) of desolation, to give both the sanctuary (church of God)
and the host (people of God) to be trodden (down) under foot (of Gentiles--or those who are not God's people)?" Daniel 8:13.


9. "Then I saw in relation to the `daily'...that the Lord gave the correct view of it to those who gave the judgment hour cry. When
union existed, before 1844, nearly all were united on the correct view of the `daily'; but in the confusion since 1844, other views
have been embraced, and darkness and confusion have followed" Early Writings, p 74-75.
The "daily" translates "continual or perpetual" (Strong's #8548), but does not refer to Christ's daily sacrifice or His daily
ministration. It refers to paganism, as the pioneers believed.
Satan used paganism (especially pagan Rome) to "continually" persecute and kill the Christians, and as he saw that this was
only causing God's church to grow, he changed his battle-plans and stopped killing the Christians. By concessions he got pagans
and Christians to gradually unite together, which corrupted the true faith. He then used these corrupted Christians to accept
pagan beliefs, and to persecute their own brethren who refused to compromise, but who remained true to God (see Spirit of
Prophecy, vol 4, p 42-46). So paganism--the daily or pagan Rome--was gradually taken away, and the transgression (abomination)
of desolation--papal Rome, with sunday as the false sabbath--was being set up.
From 34 to 321 AD paganism (pagan Rome) ruled. In 321, pagan ruler Constantine made a civil law which forbade labor on
sunday except for agriculture purposes (see Source Book for Bible Students, p 578-80). The law reads: "On the venerable
day of the sun let the magistrates and people residing in the cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however,
persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not
so suitable for grain sowing or for vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations, the bounty of heaven
should be lost" Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in "History of the Christian Church" Vol 3, p 380 by Philip Schaff,
1893.
But after 321 AD, paganism, with sunday as a worship day, gradually united with Christianity, until it was completely engulfed
in Christianity by 508 AD.

--------

Claudia Thompson
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com

 

Interesting take Craig. I am looking in vain for my comments that people are saved through my personal theological constructs. Could you please point that out to me?

Rome says to be saved I must do it through her, or maybe she will cover my hide because of my baptism.

I say that we are saved through personal faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross to justify me and cleanse me of sin.

Which sounds like a "construct"?

 

TO THE GUY WHO BROUGHT UP BAPTISTS Persecution, etc:

It doesnt matter at this point whatever the Baptists or anyone else did in the way of persecution in the past. What matters is that Bible Prophecy declares that the PAPACY will reinstate their persecution of "heretics" in the future, and actually they never really got rid of this idea in the first place...

In fact you would do well to read the entire book, Great Controversy, to see what is going to take place in the future according to Bible Prophecy, especially the last chapters.

Bible Prophecy declares that the Papal power will again do an "inquisition" and persecute those who refuse to bow down to her dictates. The Roman Catholic Church changed the 10 commandments and declares herself in the place of God by doing so. 2 Thess. 2: 2:3,4

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."


The Papacy changed the Sabbath to the pagan Sun-day:

and they are going to persecute those who keep God's Law.

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church laughs at Protestants for bowing to her authority instead of to God by following the scriptures on this subject:

As I said before, it does not matter whatever the Baptists may have done at some point, that isnt what this is all about. It is the Roman Catholic Church that is going to do persecution in the future, according to Bible Prophecy.. of those who wont "bow to the beast power" and who will not receive the mark of the beast. Revelation 14:6-12

they would be those who keep the commandments. ALL 10 of them. including the Sabbath
Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

...so dont try to put this off on the Baptists.


-----------

Claudia Thompson

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com

(edited for non-Baptist links)

[ April 22, 2005, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Well actually thats not entirely true what I said in my last message, Bible prophecy declares that those Protestants who dont come out of Babylon are going to join with the Papal power to persecute those who keep the commandments.

But as far as the past misdeeds, that makes no difference.

[ April 22, 2005, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Roman Catholics acknowledge that the change of the Sabbath was made by their church, and declare that Protestants by observing the Sunday are recognizing her power. In the Catholic Catechism of Christian Religion, in answer to a question as to the day to be observed in obedience to the fourth commandment, this statement is made: "During the old law, Saturday was the day sanctified; but the church, instructed by Jesus Christ, and directed by the Spirit of God, has substituted Sunday for Saturday; so now we sanctify the first, not the seventh day. Sunday means, and now is, the day of the Lord."

As the sign of the authority of the Catholic Church, papist writers cite "the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; . . . because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin."--Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, page 58. What then is the change of the Sabbath, but the sign, or mark, of the authority of the Roman Church--"the mark of the beast"?

The Roman Church has not relinquished her claim to supremacy; and when the world and the Protestant churches accept a sabbath of her creating, while they reject the Bible Sabbath, they virtually admit this assumption. They may claim the authority of tradition and of the Fathers for the change; but in so doing they ignore the very principle which separates them from Rome--that "the Bible, and the Bible only, is the religion of Protestants." The papist can see that they are deceiving themselves, willingly closing their eyes to the facts in the case. As the movement for Sunday enforcement gains favor, he rejoices, feeling assured that it will eventually bring the whole Protestant world under the banner of Rome.

Romanists declare that "the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church."--Mgr. Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, page 213. The enforcement of Sundaykeeping on the part of Protestant churches is an enforcement of the worship of the papacy--of the beast.
-Great Controversy, God's Law Immutable.

you all ought to go read the entire book.

 

Agreed. The 4 main empires (the sequence of 4 in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7) show Greece to be the 3rd empire and pagan Rome (before 538 AD) to be the 4th beast.

My point is that if you read the text -- Daniel 2 shows the break up of the Pagan Roman empire and attempts to reunite failing.

Daniel 7 points to an even more powerful entity arising out of the 10 divisions of Rome - one that is known for a 1260 year period of time persecuting the saints.

Rev 12 shows the same thing. AFter the time of Christ a 1260 year period of persecution.

The Dark Ages - starting after Constantine - but most assuredly by the 6th century.