"Except a man be born again,"

It is true what Pastor Larry says about it being 'God's will' and action of regeneration that brings about peoples new birth. This experience never takes place, however, without compliance to the Gospel by way of repentance, trusting and believing in Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Without a human response, salvation has not taken place in the life of the sinner.

 

Are you becoming a Calvinist Ray?? YOu have just espoused the calvinist position. The reality is that both scenarios insist on that. The difference is the terminology of the logical order. This is not a chronological distinction. It is a cause/effect distinction.

 

If the final decision is not left up to man, then what is this religion charade all about? Charade is the correct term, because if the final result is already established there is no need for the Christ to build a church! There never was a need for Jesus to die on the Cross! There is no need for Jesus disciples to Go into all the world, unless they are play-actors performing their lines.

Your way leaves it up to guessing who the "elect" are, and quite literally takes the mystery out of God's plan of Salvation.

Yet another reason why "total depravity" is false doctrine!

 

Extremely learned men have estimated that there has been approximately 10 Billion persons who live or have lived on this earth. Out of that 10 Billion, we have one report that one man was recruited to service of God in a highly supernatural way, denying that one human a free will choice. And you want to deny human free will on that basis?

Let's expand this, Jonah, who used his free will to try to escape God, was intercepted by a great fish against Johah's free will, and delivered to the shore near Nineveh. Jonah could have just as easily obeyed God and gone straightway to Nineveh and delivered God's message to the Ninevites thus avoiding any suspician that the prevailing fishy smell may have fostered.

[ January 12, 2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Correction: We have many reports of people being recruited to the service of God in a spectacular supernatural way. The other 999,999,999 (or whatever number may be accurate) were saved in a less spectacular supernatural way.

And you want to assert free will on the basis that one experience may be more or less spectacular compared to another?

 

If the final decision is not left up to man, then what is this religion charade all about? Charade is the correct term, because if the final result is already established there is no need for the Christ to build a church! ... There is no need for Jesus disciples to Go into all the world, unless they are play-actors performing their lines. </font>[/QUOTE]I couldn't say for certain, but I'm guessing you are probably correct on these selected statements. There is no "need" for Christ to build a church, or for disciples to go into all the nations. Do you honestly think God couldn't execute His plan without our help? But what difference does that make if God commands us to do so?

Put in human terms, I don't need my son to clean his room in order for it to get clean, but for his sake and mine, I am trying to teach him to clean it.

Or put in yet another way, considering how unreliable I know I am as a servant of the LORD, I, for one, am extremely thankful that God does not rely on the actions of man to see to it that His will is done. Heck, I'm pretty happy that there are brief occasions when I can get out of His way.

 

NOT at all, merely on what is "common to man". If Saul's conversion was normal for mankind, there would have been no report of it whatever. But because there are no similar reports and very little evidence of other similar occurrences, one must conclude that Paul's conversion is unique among men. It took Peter a couple years of hearing the Word to be "converted" to the point that he could say unequivocally that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah. Paul came out of his experience in mere days totally convince of who Jesus is.

 

Then you are relying on your son to exercise his own free will to accomplish what you could do for him? Doesn't that go against the Calvinism that you so strongly adhere to outside the home? Calvinism does say that God regenerates before man can believe, right? You present your son with the "Word" and let him act on the "word". Shouldn't you be cleaning the room in accordance with your Calvinist doctrine?

Interesting! You do not practice Calvinism in your own home. Does that mean that Calvinism does not work?

 

And Peter was changed dramatically after the resurrection. But what on earth or in heaven does any of this have to do with free will?

And of all people to choose as a comparison, you pick Peter?!?!?

Or, as it appears in the FWT (Free Will Translation)

 

And Peter was changed dramatically after the resurrection. But what on earth or in heaven does any of this have to do with free will?</font>[/QUOTE]Do you think that Peter could not have gone back to fishing if he chose to do so? I think he was on the verge of or doing so several times, and he did immediately after the Resurrection, that's how impressed he was!

I do not think that Jesus cast a spell over the apostles except by his unique divine charisma, that is, no mysterious power held the apostles, they were drawn by truth and Jesus is truth.

Because it is widely known that Peter was the #1 Head Pastor of the first century church of Jerusalem. The fact that Peter had Jesus true identity revealed by Spirit is no great distinction, that is after all the way we all have Jesus' identity revealed to us. We read in the scriptures or hear it spoken, but the Holy Spirit confirms the truth to us individually. EVEN PAUL! Peter traveled with Jesus for around 3 years before Jesus asked the question. Jesus was not so patient with Saul!

 

I have a feeling you don't understand what it is you're saying, because you just tossed free will out of the picture.

 

No sir I don't think so. Everyone hears the word in one form or another, everyone gets a touch by the Holy Spirit, because God is no respecter of man. Jesus' identity is revealed in the Word and confirmed by the spirit. It remains, 'up to man to believe', and that is where free will reigns supreme!

 

Hi everyone; "Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

No where in God's word does it say regenerate and believe it's impossible to be regenerated before you believe. Salvation comes just as this verse implies and in no other way.To be saved before you believe is impossible.

Romanbear

Peace

 

Free will reigns supreme? I could swear I recall a verse in the Bible that goes something like, "You shall have no other gods before me."

First you confirm that free will is not the determining factor for belief (since it is the Spirit Who confirms the truth), and now you demonstrate that free-will advocates elevate free will above God. Wow, you're chock full of revealing statements lately!

 

Shortly after I was saved, I sold the house I lived in. It was falling apart - roof collapsing, termite damage, etc., but I didn't have the money to restore it. The fellow who bought it did, though, and he restored it pretty well. So I guess that verse really is true.

 

I think we all agree that Jesus said, 'Except a person is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.' If there was not an authentic opportunity for all humans to believe, I think, Jesus would have been pulling an eternally rude trick on people. It would be like Him saying, "Here is your chance to become a Christian, but before you decide, I gotcha; sorry, no opportunity for you."

 

Ray Berrian,

If there were such a foolish scheme of salvaion that depended on "opportunity" or "chance" then your post might have some truth in it. However, God does not save according to such things, but according to His purpose as the Scriptures so clearly teach.

 

Hi everyone;

I just got to ask this because none of you who claim Calvinism have said to my recollection.

Do Calvinist ask God to save them?

Do you repent of your sins?

I know you'll think this ignorant of me .

Did God or someone you know drag you to church the first time you went? Or were you willing to go on your own?

When you were saved did you cry like a baby?

None of these questions are to trap the reader or cause an argument but only so that I may know somethings I've been wondering about.You see if you don't tell me I can't know.

Romanbear

Peace

[ January 14, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: romanbear ]