Exegesis or Bible Butchery in James 2 - Pick one

I just wanted to pop in and offer a congratz to everyone in this thread. I'm following along and frankly I'm enjoying the challenging thoughts everyone is offering. :thumbs:

This is how topics should be discussed. God Bless. :applause:

Peace Guys.

 

Bob talk about making an assertion. Dead faith is not equated to the faith of demons. You are making that connection not the text.

Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth Bob? I have never said this. I haven't even implied this. I said the audience of James' letter was saved individuals. James 1 makes this abundantly clear. So the context of James is NOT eternal salvation. So James chapter 2 is obviously talking about being saved from something that is different that what a person is saved from at the moment of by grace through faith.

Bob I have give you all kinds of proof from Scripture. You just don't like what it is saying so you keep trying to work your way around it. It is what it is and it says what it says, so we can either accept it even though it may not be what we have always believed or what our favorite Bible teacher has taught us, but Scripture says what it says and we have to accept it for that.

Agreed.

I would agree that demons' faith is useless. It does them no good to believe God is one God.

This is where you start walking down the Bob trail instead of Scripture. The faith that is in view in James is not the same faith that is in view in Ephesians 2. That is the point that I have been trying to get you to see. Ephesians is talking about eternal saving faith. James is talking about a present faith that is beyond eternal saving faith. You are mixing contexts. While you are comparing Scripture with Scripture you are actually pitting Scripture against Scripture because you are taking a passage that is talking about apples and you are comparing it with a Scripture that is talking about oranges.

They aren't in agreement in these two passages that you are using because they aren't talking about the same faith. Therefore they are not to be compared to each other. However Paul does agree with James, because he preaches the same message that works are to follow after salvation and if they don't then there will be consquences both here in this life and the age to come. So in that respect yes they are in agreement.

Well I do agree that there are Christians that do preach what you have advocated, but I do not agree with it, because it is just as untrue as what you are selling wtih all due respect. That message is preached to the peril of those that hear and believe. There will be consequences for the disobedient, unfaithful, non-overcoming Christian and it will be more than simply losing a reward or rewards that might have been. And unfortunately we can see the fruits of the preaching of peace and safety. We now have a church that is sick, dying, naked and full of shame, but yet it says that it is just the opposite.

But your argument is moot because you are saying that dead faith is equal to unsaved in an eternal sense and that's not what the text says. It is preaching peace and safety to the lost, but not in an eternal sense. The Bible clearly teaches that eternal salvation is a one-time event not a life long process. And what you are contending for is a life long process that at the end if you have believed the right thing and done the right things you will be saved. But that's just not what the Bible teaches.

I would agree with this point. It is time Christians woke up from their slumber or that day is going to overtake them like a thief in the night.

Bob I say this with all due respect. I applaud you for seeing the "problems" of Christendom. However I think you have over corrected in trying to preach against them just as I believe Luther went too far when he saw a works-based salvation message back in the day.

It's good to see the problem, but we have to let Scripture answer the problem not overcorrect what Scripture says.

 

Frankly I thought my comments were quite clear. But in order to answer your follow-up questions we need to look elsewhere since James does not address those questions. And we really should stay on topic according to the OP. This is about a particular passage in James.

James is talking about the kind of faith which PROFITS a man. Eternal salvation cannot be said to be to our profit. It is a debt we owe which was paid by Christ. Debt and profit are diametrically opposed to one another, are they not? Therefore; faith which is spoken of by Paul in Ephesians (2:8-9) has debt as its basis. But James here in 2:14 speaks of the kind of faith which brings profit. And THAT is the kind of faith James is addressing. The kind of faith which will bring us profit. So then what exactly is this profit-faith which we are supposed to demonstrate and why? We have to go all the way to James 5 to get the answer for that one.

James 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Profit faith is the kind which DOES something. Debt faith is the kind which believes something/Someone.

THE COMING OF THE LORD!!! Now that begs the question. Why should we DO all the things James tells believers to do since Jesus is coming? We need to go to other Scriptures for that one also. But let me paraphrase. Behold He cometh with ten thousands of His saints and His reward is with Him. Reward! We must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ. Be not ashamed at His coming. Can 'dead faith" save a man from this? No! A thousand times no! But we are talking about believers! So obviously if he is at the JSOC then he IS A SAVED MAN is he not? Therefore this man must DO something as James uses his entire letter to tell us. One must read the entire letter. James is advising his readers to live a Christan life because the coming of the LORD draweth nigh.

Like I said. Ya take something out of context and you end up with a mess. As evidenced by the ---church and the ---church and the ---church. (happy Bob R? Didn't mention any one by name just for you.)

Paul tells us the same thing in many of his letters also. He just doesn't used the same words all in the same place. Unfortunately (or Providentially) James did. So we have folks wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction, while others are wise and study to shew themselves approved.

Bottom line? Jesus is coming soon so you had better be LIVING like it since you will stand before Him and give account for the gift He has given you and IF you have wasted it or it has not produced fruit then you will not be saved from the Law of Sowing and Reaping which all men are bound by. Obviously if you are at the Judgment Seat of Christ and not at the Great White Throne then you must have placed you debt-faith in Him at some point in you life. But He is interested in your profit-faith at that time. Don't believe it? Read the word picture He gave us in Matt 25.

See? See? I TOLD you we would have to go to other Scriptures for the WHOLE truth. James is not isolated from Scripture. His letter is PART of the WHOLE!!!

 

AMEN Brother Jim!

 

I decided to edit this post.

 

Bob how many times does it have to be said James is not speaking of eternal saving faith. That is not the context. You are wrestling James out of the context that he intended to try and "prove" "your" doctrine to be true.

If James is talking about eternal saving faith then that contradicts what some of the rest of Scripture says about eternal saving faith. Because other Scripture says it is a one-time event that once it is complete it is complete forever without change. But James says that this faith is a lifetime thing that can change, so it becomes a process.

So we are only left with one option and that is this is a faith that is mixed with works that produces the salvation of the soul, not eternal salvation. To see it any other way is to introduce unexplainable contradictions that do not belong in the Word of God.

It really is that simple.

 

I might add that in order for Bob ryan to be correct with his interpretation then he would have to toss all of 1 John out the window. Particularly THIS passage:

1 John 5:13-15 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Present possession. We HAVE eternal life. No works can change it otherwise it is NOT eternal to begin with. It was only temporary.

James is not addressing salvation in eternity. He is addressing salvation at the coming of Christ. Salvation from what then? From being ashamed at His coming. From receiving for the bad done in the body. From being a castaway. From losing your soul. From having a portion WITH the hypocrites. From being beaten and cast into prison. From having that which you have taken and given to another.

You all recognize these things. You have read them yourselves. Now, just understand them.
The entire book of James is about HOW to live a Christian life BECAUSE the Lord's coming is near. And you should not be ashamed at His coming.

Who is ashamed? A child who has displeased his parent maybe? A child who has done wrong and is facing his parent and expecting correction maybe? Just maybe?

 

And neither does isolating Scripture from other Scripture prove your point. But unfortunately you don't stop there you try to say that you compare Scripture with Scripture, but you compare a Scripture that is talking about apples and one that is talking about oranges and then you say see I am right. But that doesn't make you right either.

Let me give you an example and then we truly have come to an end in productive conversation (because you have resorted back to your read and green cutouts ).

You are comparing eternal saving faith to sanctifiying faith. They are not the same thing. James talks about a faith that works, but Paul talks about grace through faith apart from works. Those two texts are not comparable, because they aren't talking about the same thing.

One says you must have works and the other says that it is apart from works. Try as you might there is NO WAY to make those verses talk about the same thing.

But what you are doing is just seeing the word faith and saying ah well that text has faith and this text has faith they must be talking about the same thing. That's mixing contexts. Context is king, and you have just thrown it into the garbage heap.

Actually Ephesians 2:8-9 does (says you have been saved - completed action) and so does Acts 16:30-31. It says believe (aorist tense) and you will be saved. That doesn't mean believe now and continue to believe the rest of your life and you will be saved at the end of the journey. It means believe right now and you will be saved.

Bob the only false idea being imposed onto a text is you saying that James is talking about eternal saving faith. He tells us in the first chapter that he is talking to folks that are already saved. How can it be more simple to see?

Bob comparing like Scripture with like Scripture is not inserting a bias into James 2. Knowing the difference between eternal saving faith and sanctifying faith is not iserting a bias into Scripture. It is merely allowing the context of the text tell us what the words mean instead of imposing our own definitions onto words to get them to mean what we want them to mean.

Bob that's just not true. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that. It says you have been saved. The langauge used there is a perfect tense, which means the action has been completed in the past and is once and for all never needing to be repeated. Acts 16:30-31 says believe and you will be saved. It doesn't say believe and then you'll be saved until you stop believing or until you commit unrepentant adultery or murder or lie too many times or whatever scenario you want to throw into the mix.

Scripture is very plain and very clear that once you are saved there is NOTHING that is going to change that. NOTHING. Period.

 

Nice little dance there Bob. Do you disco also?:laugh:

You COMPLETELY ignored the text I posted. You ignored the Word of God calling you out. You ignored everything JJump and I have been telling you.
On the other hand , both JJ and I know full well the game you are playing with Scripture. We have seen it time and again by the works+fatih = salvation people. Oh you may holler and stamp your foot saying you believe in saving faith by grace but you do not really believe it. You are dishonestly trying to make the Scripture support your doctrine and it cannot.

Now; try again. John tells us you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life. He goes on to tell us that we may KNOW that we HAVE what we ask of God within His will. If we KNOW it is His will we be saved, then we can KNOW that we HAVE it when we ASK for it.

But you say the opposite. Who is lying? You or Scripture?

Show me ONE place James mentions faith in the finished work of Christ. One place he talks about the shed blood of christ. One place he talks about the resurrection of Christ. Just ONE Bob!!!!

Paul is very plain as to what the gospel is.You can read it in 1 Cor 15. Show me ONE place in James you can find the same.

Since you and I both know you will not find what I am asking you to find and show me: your entire argument falls by the wayside; hence this discussion has reached impasse.

:BangHead: :BangHead: :wavey: