Exodus 20:16

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by trying2understand, Feb 6, 2002.

  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand
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    Exodus 20:16

    "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

    How does this commandment relate to our obligation as Christians to manifest the new creation which we have put on through the power of the Holy Spirit?

    Do we violate the spirit or the letter of this commandment when we:

    Repeat rumor?
    Quote out of context?
    Make rash judgement?
    Flatter excessively?
    Boast?

    If we are guilty of bearing false witness, do we have a duty of reparation?

    How would such reparation be manifested?

    Is this an important issue in our walk with the Lord?

    Ron
     
  2. Ps104_33

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    No one would know better than you! :D
     
  3. Ps104_33

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    I'll get back to you as soon as get into my prayer closet and consult my immense collection of chick comics. ;)
     
  4. trying2understand

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ps104_33:
    No one would know better than you! :D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hmmm... perhaps I should have included derogatory innuendo. [​IMG]

    Psalm, don't beat around the bush. Say what you have to say straight out. I can take it. [​IMG]
     
  5. Brother Adam

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    In all honesty, I'm more interested in waiting to see what you have to say, as most often your posts are to try to prove your Catholic point of view- is this any different?

    UNP
    Adam
     
  6. trying2understand

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
    In all honesty, I'm more interested in waiting to see what you have to say, as most often your posts are to try to prove your Catholic point of view- is this any different?
    UNP
    Adam
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You are right, Adam, I often try to get others to understand the teachings of the Church by asking questions. But no particular "Catholic" doctrine here. At least I hope not! [​IMG]

    You may find the genesis of this thread in page 9 of the thread on oral tradition in the conversation which I am having with DHK.

    After reviewing that page, perhaps you could offer your thoughts on "fasle witness" here. [​IMG]

    [ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  7. Ps104_33

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    What is it with you and this "false witness" thing. You seem to be kind of hung up on this. Is it a guilt complex? There has been more "false witness" coming out of Rome for the past 1800 years I think you may be barking up the wrong tree.
     
  8. trying2understand

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ps104_33:
    What is it with you and this "false witness" thing. You seem to be kind of hung up on this. Is it a guilt complex? There has been more "false witness" coming out of Rome for the past 1800 years I think you may be barking up the wrong tree.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    In my opinion, some participants bear false witness on this board against Catholics and the Catholic Church.

    It seems to me to be well tolerated by others. This leads me to wonder how Baptists view the commandment against false witness.

    I notice that there have been posts to this thread, but no real response on the topic itself.

    Ron [​IMG]
     
  9. DHK

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:

    You may find the genesis of this thread in page 9 of the thread on oral tradition in the conversation which I am having with DHK.
    After reviewing that page, perhaps you could offer your thoughts on "fasle witness" here.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If I have borne false witness give proof of it. If not, stop the innuendo and the slander. False accusation T2U is fairly serious also. So look up the facts. Prove me wrong before putting your foot in your mouth.
    DHK
     
  10. trying2understand

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:


    If I have borne false witness give proof of it. If not, stop the innuendo and the slander. False accusation T2U is fairly serious also. So look up the facts. Prove me wrong before putting your foot in your mouth.
    DHK
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    DHK, this thread is not about you, but rather how Baptists view the commandment against false witness.

    I would however point you to our discussion on the oral tradition thread. To your assertion concerning Mr. Hahn, to be more precise.

    Was repeating something scandalous about another, which you had heard from others, but without knowledge as to the truth of the matter, bearing false witness?

    You seemed to reply - No.

    I thought that I would see if this is a belief particular to you or if it is generally held by Baptists.

    Ron
     
  11. Brother Adam

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    In my mind to bear false witness is to lie. If I told someone "Catholics believe to be saved you have to jump up and down 100 times a day" I would be bearing false witness because I know that isn't true.

    I'm sure there are more in depth complete definitions than that, but that is what I see it as.

    UNP
    Adam
     
  12. trying2understand

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
    In my mind to bear false witness is to lie. If I told someone "Catholics believe to be saved you have to jump up and down 100 times a day" I would be bearing false witness because I know that isn't true.

    I'm sure there are more in depth complete definitions than that, but that is what I see it as.

    UNP
    Adam
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Then I am to take it that you do not consider repeating scandalous rumor, that you do not have actual knowlegde of, to not be bearing false witness?

    If you hear it, you are free to repeat it?

    What about quoting out of context to mislead the hearer. Are you willing to claim that is also not false witness?

    [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  13. Brother Adam

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    I believe you're sore about something right now and I'm not sure what it is. You're certianitely (sp?) not posting with charity, because you are trying to put words in my mouth ("So am I to take it" sort of thing).

    I believe spreading rumors is better equated with gossiping, but I could see a connection.

    UNP
    Adam
     
  14. trying2understand

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
    I believe you're sore about something right now and I'm not sure what it is. You're certianitely (sp?) not posting with charity, because you are trying to put words in my mouth ("So am I to take it" sort of thing).

    I believe spreading rumors is better equated with gossiping, but I could see a connection.

    UNP
    Adam
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, Adam, not putting words into your mouth, but rather reflecting back to you in the form of a question to be certain that I am understanding you.

    Gossip/rumors can be true or untrue. Both are "bearing witness" if repeated without the qualification that the speaker does not know the rumor/gossip to be true. With your words you act as witness to what you are repeating.

    If they are damaging to the reputation of another it becomes a serious matter, in my opinion.

    Does truth stand apart from the actual knowledge of the person repeating rumor. I say yes. Then someone who gives witness to a statement of which they have no actual knowledge gives a "false" witness. They are not a witness to the truth of the matter at all.

    Ron


    [​IMG]
     
  15. Ps104_33

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    Bearing " false witness" according to T2U:

    When the Roman Catholic Church distorts history to fit their theology, distorts the Scriptures to fit their theology, distorts the writings of the early church "fathers" to fit their theology, and comes up with undocumented oral tradition to fit the theology of the moment, and you dont agree with all of this then:


    You are bearing false witness.
     
  16. trying2understand

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ps104_33:
    Bearing " false witness" according to T2U:

    When the Roman Catholic Church distorts history to fit their theology, distorts the Scriptures to fit their theology, distorts the writings of the early church "fathers" to fit their theology, and comes up with undocumented oral tradition to fit the theology of the moment, and you dont agree with all of this then:


    You are bearing false witness.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hi Psalm,

    It's nice that you keep popping in, but why don't you offer some thoughts on the topic?

    Do we violate the spirit or the letter of this commandment when we:

    Repeat rumor?
    Quote out of context?
    Make rash judgement?
    Flatter excessively?
    Boast?

    Hoping that you will.

    Ron [​IMG]
     
  17. Ps104_33

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    I think if you are honest with yourself, you would have to admit we all do at times. The key is, are you grieved by the Holy Spirit when you do commit these sins? After all the Bible says " all men are liars".

    I know, I know, CPAs always tell the truth. ;)
     
  18. trying2understand

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ps104_33:
    I think if you are honest with yourself, you would have to admit we all do at times. The key is, are you grieved by the Holy Spirit when you do commit these sins? After all the Bible says " all men are liars".

    I know, I know, CPAs always tell the truth. ;)
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm not saying that I have never been guilty of any of the things which I have listed. I am just trying to discover what others believe. So far, it seems that at least some think that actual knowledge is divorced from false witness.

    To parapharse - as long as I don't know it is a lie, I am free to say it.

    You used the word sins. That leads me to think that you agree that those things listed can violate the commandment against bearing false witness.

    BTW, I have turned away more than one client in the course of my career because I was unwilling to particpate in their attempts to deceive.

    Ron [​IMG]
     
  19. Pauline

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    Ron,
    You're to be commended for putting God's standards above the world's. Thank you. We just discussed this in our RCIA class this week. I refered to Mr. Curtis's post on another thread about the woman who screamed at him over the sins of Christians, especially sexual sins by priests. We talked in class about how the body of Christ is hurt and the credibility of the Church is hurt by serious sins.

    God bless,
    Pauline
     
  20. DHK

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    Bearing false witness simply put is telling a lie. I think you can understand that. Do you tell lies about other people? I do not. I seek out the truth. When I believe that I have heard the truth I state it. I have nothing to be ashamed of. It appears you have something to be ashamed of or you would not have started this thread. Are you still afraid that the Catholic Church just may be full of "baptized pagans?" Is this your great fear? A fear of the truth?
    DHK
     

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