Explain these verses....

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Bro. Curtis, Sep 22, 2003.

  1. Bro. Curtis

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    Romans 4;1-5 (KJV)"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

    That verse 5 is a kicker, ain't it ?
     
  2. Ray Berrian

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    Kicker it is!

    It takes about all the faith I have to wrap myself around this verse. He is saying we become righteous in the eyes of the Lord not after how we see how we have completed our Christian life, but at the moment of belief and trust in Him. Is this something to rejoice about or what!!

    Also, verse two isn't bad either. God is tell Paul to tell us that if you are going to bring your faith plus works around, don't even try to display them ' . . . before God.' This is man's way of salvation, but the Lord keeps us saved by His sovereign way, and that is by our faith and total trust in Him for all things.

    Brother, these are huge lessons to learn and some Christians never learn them. They like to remain in spiritual kindergarten their entire life.
     
  3. Bro. Curtis

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    Often, we get told we don't interpret verses correctly, bet here, there is absolutely nothing to interpret.


    Rejoice away, Brother.
     
  4. trying2understand

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    Curtis, you should know better than to try and isolate a single verse from Scripture as the basis of your theology.

    Try looking at some other parts of the Bible too.

    1 Corinthians 13:2
    And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    Galatians 5:6
    For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

    James 2:24
    You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    BTW the Catholic Church does not teach justification by "works". But of course you already know this.

    It's by grace.

    [ September 23, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  5. neal4christ

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    So justification can't be lost, correct?

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  6. trying2understand

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    The Bible tells us that we have a moral assurance of salvation. God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him.

    But the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven.

    You are saved by grace, but you must persevere to the end in faith and fidelity.


    Romans 11:22-23
    Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


    2 Peter 2:20-21
    For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


    1 Corinthians 10:11-12
    Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
    Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.


    1 Corinthians 15:1-2
    Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.


    Matthew 18:21-35
    The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
    Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
    Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, "Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
    "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, "Pay me what you owe!' So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, "Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, "You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
    "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."
     
  7. tragic_pizza

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    Justification isn't something you "get." It's something you "are."

    And, as I understand it, it's just part of the overall process of, as Paul puts it, "being saved."

    (Once again, tragic shows the value of having no dogs hunting out of either camp :D )
     
  8. trying2understand

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    Right.

    Justified by grace.

    Saved if we persevere to the end in faith and obedience.


    [​IMG]
     
  9. Bro. Curtis

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    1 John 5:5 who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    Ron, how about the verses out of Romans 4. What do they mean ?
     
  10. trying2understand

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    As I told you, we are not justified by works.

    We are justified by Grace.

    Once in Grace, we must live in faith and fidelity to the end to receive salvation.

    What are you not understanding from my answer?
     
  11. Bro. Curtis

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    Ron, what does verse 5 mean ? Don't avoid it, be a man and answer, if you can.
     
  12. trying2understand

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    It means that we are justified by grace, not works.

    As I have stated before.

    The part you seem to not understand is that justification is not the same as salvation.
     
  13. MikeS

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    Clearly, the verses say that nothing we can do can put God into our debt. We cannot obligate God to owe us justification by anything we do. We are justified through His freely-given grace, by trusting in Him.

    Just search the CCC for "Grace and Justification" (starting at paragraph 1987) to learn more! [​IMG]

    Not much controversy here!
     
  14. Bro. Curtis

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    Now we are getting somewhere....

    I believe it means works cannot possibly earn favor with God, or else we would boast.

    Also, I take it that salvation cannot be hinged upon our works, or else, we would boast.

    Could you put the difference between justification, and salvation in layman's terms ? 'cuz the way I understand it is...

    Christ crucified = God glorified = The believer justified

    You can't separate the three. Justification is a one time event. Perhaps you are confusing sanctification, and justification, which are two completely different things. Sanctification is a life-long process, but justification takes place immediately.
     
  15. trying2understand

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    Let's back up a bit, Curtis.

    You psoted your verses.

    Said there was nothing to interpret.

    I said that justification is by Grace about sixty times, and now you say we are getting somewhere.

    How about if you share with us what it is that you are trying to say in this thread.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    In Bible College my first introduction to the word justification was taught this way. It means 'Just as if I had never sinned.' That is high enough of standing with the Lord to my mind and heart.

    Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer a former President of Dallas Theological Seminary says, 'Justification means to be declared righteous. It is true that, being in Christ, the believer is righteous ; but justification is the Divine acknowledgment and declaration that the one who is in Christ is righteous. That which God thus publishes He defends. Justification is immutable.' "Systematic Theology" Volume III p. 128.

    Dr. Charles C. Ryrie says in his book, "Basic Theology" on page 343 that justification means, 'To justify means to declare righteous. Both the Hebrew {sadaq} and the Greek {dikaioo} words mean to announce or pronounce a favorable verdict, to declare righteous. The concept does not mean to make righteous, but to announce righteousness. It is a courtroom concept, so that to justify is to give a verdict of righteous.'

    Page 345 says, 'Justification is proved by personal purity. "He who has died is freed (lit., justified) from sin" [Romans 6:7] We stand acquitted from sin so that it no longer has dominion over us. Justification before the bar of God is demonstrated by holiness of life here on earth before the bar of men.' This paragraph is under the subtitle "The Proof of Justification." Dr. Ryrie is a Ph.D. from Edinburg and is professor emeritus at Dallas Theological Seminary.

    Dr. Paul Enns "The Moody Handbook of Theology" p. 326 says, 'Whereas forgiveness is the negative side of salvation, justification is the positive side. To justify is to declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus Christ. It is forensic {legal} act of God whereby He declares the believing sinner righteous on the basis of the blood of Christ. It involves the pardon and removal of all sins and the end of separation from God (Acts 13:39; Romans 4:6-7; 5:9-11; II Corinthians 5:19). It also involves the bestowal of righteousness upon the believing person and "a title to all the blessings promised to the just.'

    Ray is saying, some of the blessings are regeneration, the beginning of sanctification and the indwelling of the Holy Sprit Who insures and promotes our sanctification in this earthly life. Adoption into the family of God is another inestimable blessing received at the moment of our justification. The insured hope of glorification will happen at the hour of our death or when Christ comes for His people in the air. [Romans 8:30]

    Dr. Pat Robertson, President of the Christian Broadcasting Network, Inc. has a M.Div. from New York Theological Seminary and a J.D., a legal degree from Yale University Law School. Here is what he says about justification.

    'Our salvation has three parts. First, at the moment we receive Christ in faith, His death cancels completely all of our sins. This is called "justification by faith" In Christ our position before God is sinless. We are totally absolved from all past sins, just as if we had never sinned. This is salvation of our spirit.' He goes on to speak to the issue of our sanctification and our glorification which completes the three aspects of a Christian's salvation.
     
  17. CatholicConvert

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    Hello Brother Curtis --

    Are the leaves changing in your neck of New England yet? Ahhhhh, I bet it will be beautiful up there in just a very short while.

    First of all, if you REALLY want an answer to your question (which is a good question) you should get the book NOT BY FAITH ALONE by Robert Sungenis and read it slowly and carefully. It is well over 700 pages and absolutely DESTROYS the Protestant position. Sungenis was a Latin rite Catholic who did what you did. But he kept studying, especially as he studied for and participated in the Protestant ministry, and came to find eventually, after 15 years away from the Church, that the Church really did have it right. And he returned, of course, which was the intellectually honest thing to do.

    As for your verse, I know that I have mentioned this NUMEROUS TIMES, but here goes again. Tragic Pizza hit the nail right on the head when he said that justification is WHO WE ARE!!! As sinners, we are enemies of God and completely unrelated to Him. God's favor is not to His enemies, but rather to His sons.

    Therefore, through the work of the Eldest Son, Jesus, who is the Christ, the relationship between God and man is protentially restored. Our "work" , as it were, is to "believe upon the One Whom God hath sent" (John 6: 29). Notice that Jesus Himself says that there is a work to do.

    Our faith opens the door of the kingdom for us and by faith and as an expression of that faith, we enter the family by entering the covenant of God, the New Covenant, by baptism. This act makes us His children, sons and daughters by grace.

    The book of Romans was written specifically to counteract the false claims of the Jews who believed A) that their nationality automatically entered them into Heaven B) that circumcision was still the passport into Heaven, even in the New Covenant. Remember the controversy with the "circumcision party" in the book of Acts?

    You need to begin to try to think like a first century Jew who is STEEPED in Judaism. You are used to thinking that there are certain "acts of the law" which guarentee your entrance into Heaven, especially circumcision. St. Paul's writings are to make the Jews realize that their faith is in the wrong thing.

    Now how did Abraham's faith justify him? By his sitting around and saying "Yes sir, I REALLY REALLY believe God." ? Or by his picking up the knife, loading the wood on the ass, and heading towards the mountain with a heavy heart? Faith does work.

    We are indeed justified without works. The baby who has just been baptized is completely clean and completely justified before God. He/she is now a member of God's family by the grace of Christ's work on the Cross. By the Cross, that child is taken out of the family of the first Adam, which is under condemnation (Rom. 5:12) and placed in the family of the Last Adam. There is a real unity to Christ in this (Gal. 3: 26 and Rom. 6:3).

    As long as we continue to BE God's children by our obedience to Him, we have justification and can expect to receive the inheritance of eternal life at the end of time. But when we become His enemies by making a covenant with the evil one (John 8:44), we cease to be God's children and fall out of covenantal relationship with Him. The Parable of the Prodigal shows this quite nicely. And, if we die in the "far country" of sin, without repenting, we cannot receive the inheritance. Only when we "come to our senses" as did the Prodigal, and repent, returning to the Father's bosom, is that relationship restored again and we can expect to receive the inheritance.

    No Ray, salvation is not based on the Roman courtroom. The entire Bible has to do with the covenantal relationship called "the family". There is comparatively little wording speaking of God as Judge compared to the great riches of His being called "Father". The Protestant paradigm was created by Luther and Calvin, both of whom were trained as lawyers and saw God as merely Judge and nothing more. Their idea of grace is not a Father loving children unworthy of that love but of a distant and uncaring judge issuing pardons which are undeserved.

    Brother Curtis, remember that a covenant must be entered into and then kept to the end. Covenants are breakable. They are breakable because coveanant is relationship and either party can choose to end the relationship with the other.
     
  18. Bro. Curtis

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    Brother Ed, How are you ? Long time, no speak, eh ? Well, things have sure changed for me. I had my job shipped off to Mexico, and am unemployed. But it is festival season up here, and my Bluegrass band has been super busy, playing 2 or three times every weekend. I met a wonderful woman early spring and it looks like I'm not going to be able to scare her away, my daughter is growing up beautifully, and things really coulndn't be better. I thank God every day, so's I don't get tempted to curse him if things change. Know what I mean ?

    Brother Ed, people break covenants. Look how many times I have vowed to never return here :D

    God doesn't break them. And I believe Romans 4:5 to be the best, simplest, unarguable evidence of eternal security in the Bible.

    But I don't expect the argument to end here, I'm just trying to give folks something to think about.

    Also, during the next few days, I'm going to delve into it with some other literature I have dug up in our local library, not to convince you, but just to explain my point.

    Good hearing from you.
     
  19. CatholicConvert

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    Bluegrass!!

    [​IMG]

    Awwwwwright!!!

    (Knew there was a reason I liked you!!!)

    Some of the best music there is!!

    Quick comment. Remember, a covenant is based on TWO PARTIES COMMITTING TO EACH OTHER. Let's say you get married to this lady you met. You cannot make a decision for her and she cannot make a decision for you. In a covenant, each makes a free will decision to unite with the other.

    Yes, indeedy, God will NEVER violate His end of the covenant.

    But we are NOT perfect like He is....

    And that is why He gave us the Sacraments! :D [​IMG]

    If I ever get back up there, you and I will have to sing. I have a pretty good voice (tenor/baritone). Maybe we could do some of those old Bluegrass Gospel favorites together!! :D

    THAT would be a whole lotsa fun!!

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  20. neal4christ

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    So what is salvation dependent on? And can one be justified and yet end up in hell? How?

    In Christ,
    Neal

    P.S. Tragic, I know that justification is not something we get, it is something we are! [​IMG]
     

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