Explain This:

Archangel, all the sinner can do is believe on Jesus. That is all we can do. We do not have the power to regenerate ourselves, make ourselves alive, or make ourselves born again, only Jesus has this power. But to those who receive him and believe on his name, to them he gives power to "become" the sons of God.

 

You have put forth an unnecessary hypothetical that doesn't make sense. It is not a matter of what comes first. Life is eternal. How can it not come first? It is always there. Appropriating eternal is by faith. One must appropriate eternal life by faith. Without faith there is no salvation.

Your statements are illogical. Eternal life is eternal. But to gain it one must have faith. In an unsaved person's life, of course, faith must come first. "He that believeth hath life; he that believeth not the Son of God hath not life."
Faith must come first.

Of course. Why wouldn't it. It is eternal.

I have never doubted this at all? How else would you define eternal life?

And that life, that eternal life, is initially gained through faith.
The Christian life is lived by faith. That is a more simple way to put it.

You are just too profound here. Eternal life is always there for the asking. If any man wants it he simply has to ask. That is why belief precedes the appropriation of eternal life. Eternal life is always there for the taking of those who want it.

In order to be born of God, one must believe. This truth is made clear in John 1:12,13. "even to them that believe on his name.

Not according to John 1:12. This is a misinterpretation of yours.
Those that are born of God have believed.
Those that have been saved have believed.
Whosoever has believed has been saved.
Belief always comes first.

 

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I understand English which is what my Bible is written in.

Scripture says that we are justified by faith.

If you're born again before faith, you are born again before you have been justified, which makes you a born again, unjustified sinner.

 

Why does it not make sense.

You have not given a single verse of Scripture to support this idea that being born again CANNOT precede faith and justification.

You just keep repeating that it is not possible- why? Because you don't think it is?

It doesn't make sense- Why? Because you say so?

Romans 8:30 says, "Those whom he predestined he also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified."

The call comes before the justification. The call makes alive. It precedes justification.

 

That is a twisting of Scripture. He calls or elects according to his foreknowledge. In Romans 8:30 there is no cause and effect list given.

 

I did give you scripture from Romans. We are justified by faith. That is scripture.

You must have faith to be justified. You will not receive eternal life until you have been justified. To be born again is to have eternal life. You cannot have eternal life until you are justified and you must have faith before you can be justified.....because......we are justified by faith.

I don't know any simpler way to put it.

 

It makes perfect sense- you are just not able to follow it.

It IS about what comes first- that is what we are talking about. Does spiritual life take place in a man BEFORE he can believe- the answer is clearly, yes, as we have shown.

I CANNOT see why you think a single word of John 1:12 supports your position that life (in the person) must FOLLOW faith.

It is not there.

This is because of depravity. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he. I Corinthians 2:14

Why?

They are spiritually discerned. And the natural man is spiritually dead.

This is the VERY reason WHY we must be born again.

Nicodemus came to Jesus boasting of what he perceived. "We know that thou art a teacher come from God."

Jesus burst his bubble showing him that he cannot perceive ANYTHING until he is born again.

"Verily, verily I say unto you that except ye be born agains ye cannot SEE the Kingdom of God."

This is why I John 5:1 says that life FOLLOWS being born of God.

"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God."

 

Both DHK and I have provided scripture that says you must believe to have life, there are many of them. You cannot have life until your sins are forgiven, and you cannot be justified until you first believe.

 

The Scripture says that we are justified by faith- I believe that we are justified by faith. I do not believe we are justified apart from faith. I have said that clearly to you better than twice now.

But you keep contending that life cannot precede justification and you cannot support that with Scripture.

All you can do is keep giving Scripture that says that faith is necessary for justification- a point on which I have already made clear we already agree.

 

No you haven't- not one.

 

Sigh. Ok.

 

In the bible salvation is always by or through Faith.......never because of faith

Saving faith is the gift of God. Fallen man does not have it,unless God gives it to him. Then you say;

Not so....saving faith,repentance and grace come from God alone. But I see why you resist this right here when you say this;

Free will is a false philosophical idea. Fallen man has ..self willwhich hates God and His truth. A proper understanding of the fall,and Rom6:17-18 would be helpful here...you could read Luther on bondage of the will, or spurgeons free will a slave,among many other works for help here.
next you say this;

man decides nothing, he obeys and is bound by his sin nature,and unless Jesus sets him free, as He taught in jn 8....no man will ever be saved.
then you resort to this;

Rather then deal scripturally you seek to twist what I have posted,and then make some kind of threat??? I said no such thing. I just said that there is a broad spectrum of beliefs,and guess what....not all those beliefs are correct.
We all have to agree with you to be able to post?
You have your mind closed and have evidently picked and selected what you "feel" is acceptable. Not everyone agrees with you and your philosophy.

Again you offer another ad hominem attack;

[/QUOTE]
This in itself shows confusion on your part....godly believers/are probably not saved????what kind of nonsense is that? Your railing against calvinism and calvinists is consuming you.
I am confident in the view of scripture I hold,and am still learning. You have not made any scriptural arguement that is adding anything to the discussion,and as time permits I will go back and read your past posts to see what kind of theologicaL balance you hold.
What I do see is that when someone cannot speak to the scriptures they just say.....oh you are arrogant as if that is a magical formula to give them the high ground. Well friend I will go with what I know,and you are free to believe or not believe what verses are offered.
It is God alone that reveals or conceals truth, not man.

Godly Baptists hear the Shepherd,goats do not.

The words of Jesus stand......

 

I provided John 11:25 and John 6:40, DHK provided John 20:31, John 1:12 and several others. All of these verses say you first believe to have life. I don't expect you to accept this, but you have been shown.

 

I dealt with some of those- you never responded.

You just copy and paste verses that have nothing to do with what you believe and then color them red and blue and think that you have really proven something.

 

I follow what the Bible teaches; not your philosophy.

You have NEVER shown this to be true in the Scriptures. To do so you have to take Scriptures out of context and ignore the totality of Scriptures. Faith comes first, every time. The fact that eternal life is already there is irrelevant. That is what makes your position so illogical. It is like walking into a restaurant to sit and have a meal. What comes first: ordering the food or eating the meal. The food is always there to order. But unless you avail yourself of that opportunity and actually do the ordering and eat the food, it avails you nothing. But the food is always there to order.
See how ridiculous your question is. Eternal life is always there. It is yours to appropriate and enjoy. Jesus said: "I am come that you might have life and life more abundantly." How? By faith. It can only be appropriated by faith.

I read the words very clearly (perhaps you cannot see them) even to them that believe on his name.

True. Until they are born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is the comparison that is being made in 1Cor.2:12-14. So why take Scripture out of context?

That we might have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--yes. And all that comes by faith.

And Nicodemus did become a believer. He put his faith and trust in Christ. We see him later exercising his faith along with Joseph of Arimathea and other women at the burial of Christ. He became "a believer," meaning "he believed."

Correct. He is born again because he has believed.
The same is true of the saved. They are saved because they have believed.
Faith or belief comes first every time.

 

Statements like "most ridiculous" are immature and are going against the person and not the subject. Also shows a lack of support for ones position when they have to resort to this.

false dichotomy. It doesn't make anybody a robot

Never denied that.

Very true man has a choice and he is responsible for his actions.

straw man

True

False. Faith comes at the same time. Faith is a gift from God as I supplied passages over.

Yes he does. You just not saying so doesn't make it that way. I already gave passages where faith was called a gift from God and it was talking about salvation

Already supplied passages.

A person dead in their trespasses and sins is a spiritually dead person. They are separated from spiritual things. They want nothing to do with God.

You have a wrong application. The Bible is very clear that the unregenerate doesn't seek after God. The analogy is from the Bible(Ephesians 2) so if it is the wrong analogy, you will have to take that up with God.

And the unregenerate doesn't want to put faith in Jesus Christ. They have no desire to put their faith in God. Something must change for them to want to. This comes from God.

 

Oh, so man is born of God by the will of Man(faith) and not of the will of God

 

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

This does not say a THING about faith PRECEDING regeneration- not a word. It doesn't even touch on the subject.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/COLOR]

That is the will of God that sent Christ that everyone that believes will have everlasting life. This verse does not say a word, once again, to support this notion of yours that faith must precede life.

It is the will of every parent that every child of theirs who breathes will live a long life. Does that statement demand that breathing PRECEDES life? No. It is simply a statement of fact that a parent will that every child of their breathing will live a long life.

The same language in John 6:40- To demand that that verse teach that faith precedes regeneration is silliness.

But just for the record, in context, Jesus tells us there how this takes place.

He said four verses later, "No one can come to me unless my father who sent me draw him..."

A few verses later beginning in 62 Jesus states that they would not believe if they saw him rise to heaven. He says that he has been speaking the words of life to them and they STILL don't believe and then he tells them why in verse 65 "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the father."

Your passage John 20:21 I have dealt with numerous times with no response.

So we've covered it. Either come up with a counter argument to our interpretations of these passages or be marginalized as one who just proof texts and in a lazy fashion without doing the work of exposition.

 

No, no man is saved of his own will, man will always seek to save himself through works. It is God's will to save us through faith in his Son. This is why Jesus came into this world and revealed his Father's will to us. It was Jesus himself that told us we would be saved if we believe on him. When you believe on Jesus you are submitting to the Father's will.

 

Dead

Anyone and everyone is dead without the words of God now the word of Jesus.

Spirit and life is in the words of Jesus.

If someone never hears the words of God they are dead and remains dead, it is our responsibility to reach them with the words of God, because God gave us that task.

They will never seek God on their own and they have no excuse for God has revealed Himself through what He has made.

Since God does show no favoritism everyone has a chance to believe and He will only save those who believe in His Son from condemnation and you can do nothing to change His word.

You are unregenerate without the word of God and never will be regenerated without it.

God is no respecter of person everyone has the same chance for salvation to believe in His Son.

We will not see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again not to believe. God is no respecter of person or shows no favoritism all men have the same chance for salvation Jesus.