Explain your view of the atonement

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Oct 25, 2008.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    This has gotten argued many times here so rather than argue, I want to do something that to my knowledge has not been done before.
    I am going to start this thread, not so much for debate but to give people a chance to give a positive presentation of what they believe.

    Please to not respond to another poster until you have posted your own beliefs on the subject.

    Also, give a decent amount of detail but not book length.
    A few paragraphs is ideal.
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    Jesus death on the cross was

    1. Substtutionary. He was bruised for my iniquity.
    2. Enough. To justify God's forgiving my sin. Isaiah 53: "He shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied." God's justice was satisfied. Jesus said "It is finished."
    3. Efficient. For sinners who trust him for salvation.
    4. Planned from eternity. Acts 2 "...the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God..." (Acts 2:23)
     
  3. Brandon C. Jones

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    I believe that Christ's atonement includes forgiving us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

    I believe that Christ's atonement includes suffering death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

    I believe that Christ's atonement includes that at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    I could go on, but I believe that Christ's atonement overcame sin, death, and the devil. I believe that Christ's atonement paid the penalty due everyone--death, and he was able to pay it because he obeyed the law perfectly and was righteous. Of course, the penalty he paid is sufficient for all, but it is only efficient to take the place of those who beleive--whom he claims as his people. I believe that Christ's atonement showed God's love for us, and gives us an example to follow. Thus, I am thankful that the church has not flattened Christ's atonement to just one aspect of it, but has affirmed its manifold aspects. There is much fruit in meditating on the atonement, and it often brings me to prayer.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    I believe Jesus died to actually atone (cover, take away the penalty) for the sin of all those He loved from before the foundation of the world. The rest will die in their sins un-atoned-for and go to the hell we all rightly deserve. Thank God for His grace.

    This allowed the Father to justify the sinner and give him a place in heaven.

    Jesus' death may have had "collateral" benefits for creation and every person, and COULD have atoned for every sin, but it was particular to purchase redemption for the elect, not to simply make possible the salvation of anyone (since no one would then be saved).
     
  5. skypair

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    Simple...

    ... atonement means "at - one - ment" ---- reconciliation with God. Every other concept (propitiation, etc.) is only given to describe the "mechanics" of the cross.

    skypair
     
  6. Dale-c

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    Ok, Skypair but can you go into detail? Just how is all that applied? Did Christ atone for everyone single person on the cross?
    Was the salvation of anyone secured on the cross? Only Some? None at all?
    Was the salvation of the elect made sure? Was the salvation of everyone without exception made secure?
    Or did Christ merely secure the penalty for sin generically?
    Was the atonement substitutionary? These are what I am looking for.
     
  7. webdog

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    As our NT High Priest, one only has to look to the OT atonement given on behalf of the high priest.
     
  8. skypair

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    (Some of what follows is my basic understanding of the issues, mind you.)

    By belief. "Believe in thine heart and confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ."

    He died for every sin. Atonement is up to the individual. As you would expect, it take 2 "people" to begin with who agree to be as one -- "at - one - ment."

    "Not for our sins only but the sins of the world." Prospectively, salvation was secured for everyone.

    The "election" of the "saved" was made sure by Christ's atoning work. "Salvation of the elect" is a reversal of the pertinent events both in the "before creation" foreknowledge of God and in the course of time actual occurrence of the events.

    Jesus paid the penalty for all sin -- and all mankind knows that they have escaped the just desserts of their misdeeds. They also know that only by the mercy of God did they not get what they deserved. "Know" is the keyword here. This is a "mental" transaction that takes place in one's spirit (intellect, emotions, will).

    But grace -- atonement -- is a different thing. In grace, we receive the promises of God and therefore, we receive to our eternal souls what we don't deserve -- reconciliation and salvation. What I am saying by that is that the standard by which we live our lives is in perfect sync with God's. This is NOT a mental process. Thoughts come and go. By BELIEVING the gospel, we are newly reconciled to God and able to compare our thoughts to the "Standard" God has indwelt in our souls and to live more "perfectly" every day.

    Most Calvies have trouble with understanding a) the sin of unbelief (if all sin is forgiven, why not this one? Because it is a sin disorients the soul. The unbelieving carnal spirit keeps the soul from "hearing" the Holy Spirit.). They also have trouble with b) understanding, if everyone has a carnal, sin-drenched spirit, how is anyone saved? It is by the power of "light" over "darkness." Light reveals what the spirit was not aware of but what the SOUL/conscience is somewhat aware of -- seeing the soul is ingrained with notions of fairness, justice, authority, mercy, etc. -- that there is a "godhead," Rom 1:20. If one doesn't believe in the "revealed godhead," then one's soul remains lost and in the dark. But light received brings more light.

    Yes, we are forever seen "in Christ" and in God's kingdom, we will forever be seen "in God," 1Cor 15:28!

    skypair
     
  9. Marcia

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    Atonement is Christ paying the penalty for sins, being a propitiation that removes God's wrath on those who believe, and being a substitionary sacrifice for sinners. In short, his atonement means that those who believe are no longer under the wrath of God, they are reconciled with God, they have their sins forgiven, and have eternal life with Christ.

    I'm not going to be drawn into a Calvinist debate so don't ask me about limited atonement. I won't answer.

    Atonement does not mean at-one-ment; it comes from the word atone and not "at one."

    At-one-ment comes from the heretic who founded Christian Science, Mary Baker Eddy, and is taught by certain liberals, Mind Science teachers, and some New Agers. It does not mean that because if it did, it would be universalism.

    Also, the way most of these people mean at-one-ment is that we are at one with God no matter what. They say that Jesus' death revealed our oneness with God; not that it brought it about. So I never say at-one-ment.
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    Well said. Take Vine's "Expository Dictionary of NT Words" and see one of the first things it says about "Atonement". It states "at-one-ment is a fanciful misconception".

    And it defines it in the BIBLICAL context, not in humanistic jargon. Christ atoned (propitiation, forgiveness, covering) for sin and it was taken away.

    Unlike Marcia, the very defintion of atonement/redemption HERALDS a particular, limited act of God, actually redeeming/taking away sin/providing the mercy seat for the sin of His elect, not for all man.

    If all sin was "Atoned" for, all sin would be taken away, covered and all mankind, angels, et al would be saved. This is the universal heresy, the logical conclusion of those who can't grasp what "atonement" actually means!
     
  11. Allan

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    That would ONLY be true if faith was not needed in order to be saved. However scripture declares that the propitiation is applied via faith (Rom 3:25). The atonement must be applied through a means and that means is faith. Therefore the sacrifice of itself has done nothing for a person until that person by faith recieves it.

    Editted/and editted in:
    IOW - without faith the propitiation is not applied even though it was made. So it has no effect regarding that person until it is actually applied.
    It helps a great deal in understanding the atonement to actaully go back in the OT and read for whom the atonement was to be made (everyone) and to why it was actaully applied only to some (those of faith).
     
    #11 Allan, Oct 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2008
  12. Rippon

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    What does that mean?Please rephrase.
     
  13. Allan

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    Forgot the word 'nothing' - refering to salvation of them.

    IOW - without faith the propitiation is not applied even though it was made. So it has no effect regarding that person until it is actually applied.
     
  14. webdog

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    Someone doesn't know what the atonement means...

    I wouldn't be so quick to call Scripture "heresy" either. "Christ died once for ALL"
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    Universalism IS heresy. Legitimate word to describe such false, schismatic teaching. We don't call arminianism "heresy" (against BB policy), but universalism - that all men will be saved because Christ atoned for all sin - is cultic heresy.

    Atonement is God the Father's acceptance of the propitiatory work of God the Son on Calvary. It paid the price for the sins of His own. None of us will die in our sins; they are atoned for.

    So it is a DONE DEAL between the Father and Son. Hard for self-centered man to come to grips with it - we all think we must DO DO DO something.

    But BECAUSE our sins are atoned for, we (in the eternally beloved by unmerited grace) are give faith and repentance and THEN and only then do we REACT to the atonement, repenting for sin and putting faith in Jesus Christ.
     
  16. skypair

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    :laugh: :laugh: That's just an easy explanation Dr Rogers used to use! :laugh:

    It means the same as "reconciliation" which IS a Bible equivalent for it, 2Cor 5:20.

    skypair
     
  17. skypair

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    Sounds like you are preaching universal atonement, Bob. "Because our sins are atoned for?" How would we know this unless a) it was universal or b) we had applied it to our sins?

    And if this is the real basis upon which we get faith and repentance, again, we would have to have some kind of belief about our atonement before we would receive faith, right?

    Bob, your analysis is very confusing. Could you elaborate on the questions I've asked?

    skypair
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Christ atoned (took away, erased, covered with His blood) the sin of all God's elect. None of them will die in their sin; all will go to heaven.

    I (like everyone here born again) had no clue whether I was "elect" or not. I was just a rotten sinner, doing and thinking NOTHING right in the sight of God. Some were irreligious sinners, others religious sinners, but all completely incapable of any good thought/deed.

    I received an amazing gift. My sinful nature was "born again" by God's Spirit. Like the wind, we see the RESULT but not the action. On March 16, 1957 I heard the Gospel and, like always, rejected it and continued on blind in my sin. On March 17, 1957 I heard the Gospel and, because there had been an inward change wrought by God, I now had the wondrous gifts of repentance and faith so I could call on Jesus.

    You continue to make the same error ("we must have SOME . . .") that puts MAN into the equation. This does not come until AFTER we are born again/regenerated by the holy Spirit of God.
     
  19. Amy.G

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    Please show scripture that says that we are born again before we have faith. We have shown plenty that say faith is neccessary for salvation.
     
  20. webdog

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    Universal atonemtne does not = universalism. You called universal atonement heresy. That is against Scripture...a heresy in iteself.

    As an administrator, I really wish you would set the example and leave the ad hominems out of these discussions. Vitriolic language is also against BB rules.
     

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