Explaining Jn 3:18

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jan 18, 2012.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    John 3:18

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Many who have corrupted this verse, the Truth, pretend that this verse teaches Faith or believing is a condition to getting saved !

    This scripture is first of all stating a Fact, it is saying those believing on Christ are not condemned, in fact, the believing here gives evidence that they were not in a condemned state but in fact a saved state. These are people who never had their sins laid to their Charge 2 Cor 5:19, and so their believing gives evidence of that. How can anyone be condemned whose sins never were Charged against them by God ? The strength of sin is the Law, not unbelief ! 1 Cor 15:56

    56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    If a Person is condemned before God, it is not because of their unbelief, but because of God's Law and Justice has not been satisfied in behalf of them ! If one dies in their sins as per Jesus words here Jn 8:24

    24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    Notice, Ye shall die in your SINS Plural ! What sins ? All of their violations of God's Law, in thought , word , and deed !

    Jesus said that you shall die in your sins If ye believe not that I am He. Why don't they believe ? This is why Jn 10:26

    26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    They believe not because they are not His Sheep that He died for Jn 10:11,15. This implies that if They were of His Sheep, they shall hear His voice and believe Jn 10:16 ! And why did they believe ? Because He died for them, and their sins, which violated God's Law were not laid to their Charge, hence they were not condemned, and so those believing are not condemned as stated in Jn 3:18 ! God's Law and Justice has been satisfied[Propitiated] for them by Christ's Work their Shepherd !
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  3. steaver

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    A man hears the gospel of Jesus Christ and afterwards declares, "I do not believe in this Jesus Christ you preach". Your position is that this man does not believe because he is NOT His sheep. Your position is that the sheep have been chosen and when they hear they will believe.

    What of those who hear 10, 20, 100 times and curse the Lord Jesus, but then on that 101th time they say "Yes, I believe!"

    Your exegesis then fails. If it were as you say, the chosen sheep would believe the moment they heard, there would be no delays.
     
  4. savedbymercy

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    Do you understand what I am saying in the post ?
     
  5. steaver

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    I believe I showed you how your exegsis fails.
     
  6. savedbymercy

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    More on Jn 3:18

    So those believing on Christ gave evidence that they were not condemned ! How could they be, for their sins, the reason for condemnation has been placed upon Christ and not upon them 2 Cor 5:19 !

    Now notice, he that believeth not is condemned already ! That means, he was already condemned before his not believing was made evident ! In fact, thats why he did not believe, because he was still under the condemnation of his sins ! You see, If his or her sins were not imputed to Christ's Charge, then they must be charged to them, and God see's them as law breakers, and under condemnation !

    Now he that believeth not is condemned Already, Because !

    This is the word that gives the false teachers the problem, the word BECAUSE. It is the conjunction hoti:

    that, because, since

    Now this conjunction can mean one of two things #1 It can mean casual, when denoting something cause and effect or #2 Illative or inference or conclusion because of facts ! " The Tree's flourish because the ground is rich". In this instance, the word because is used as a cause! "We assert that the ground is rich Because, the Tree's Flourish " Here it is not the cause, because the life of the tree does not cause the soils richness, but a conclusion has been reached by stated fact ! One can infer the goodness of the soil from the life of the trees. In other words, the character of the tree or trees , evidences the the goodness of the soil, and so the because in Jn 3:18 should be understood in that sense ! The one bears fruit because the ground was good Matt 13:23

    23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

    The verse is not stating that the cause of their condemnation was that they did not believe or that one is condemned if they do not accept Christ, but it denotes what is evidential of the unbelievers lost condemned state, for Faith in Christ is the evidential sign of ones calling and election to Salvation, and unbelief is the evidence of one without the benefits of Christ's Death on their behalf, and they are merely evidencing that they are yet still in their sins and under condemnation of the law ! I am much indebted to John Foreman for many of the points being made in this Post !
     
  7. savedbymercy

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    They shall believe, but when is only determined by God. In other words,it may not be when they first heard the Gospel with a Natural Ear, but later when they hear it with a Spiritual Ear..
     
  8. steaver

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    That seems odd, God withholding the gospel from His own sheep. Interesting. Does your doctrine explain for people why God would let some of His sheep lost in sin for maybe years, even murderers and rapist? I wonder why God would wait to speak to His sheep spiritually like that.

    So I was just thinking, when you say,

    "They believe not because they are not His Sheep that He died for Jn 10:11,15. This implies that if They were of His Sheep, they shall hear His voice and believe Jn 10:16 !"

    this is not exactly true, you are allowing for exceptions. It would probably be helpful to those you are trying to convince if you would word this differently so they can understand that when Paul says that faith cometh by hearing and preaching the Word of God he is reffering to "spiritual preaching and hearing" and not the actual preaching of the mouth or hearing of the ear.

    Interesting.....
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    Yes, but only until a set time. He witheld it from His Sheep Paul until it please Him to Reveal it to Him.. Gal 1:15

    But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

    The point however you are missing, is that they shall believe !
     
  10. steaver

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    See, the way I understand the gospel is that the preaching to the ear (natural hearing) works in harmony with the Holy Spirit speaking to the heart (spiritual hearing) which convicts the person of their unrighteousness and their need for Christ righteousness.

    Of course I believe God can save without a human preacher just by using the Holy Spirit alone as well, even Paul was saved by special circumstances.

    But you believe God withholds the crucified Christ from many of His sheep until later in life, even after they have done enormous damage, like Paul. Interesting.
     
  11. steaver

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    No I dont miss that point at all. God who knows all things, has the Lambs book of Life from before the foundation of the world.The names were set before human life existed. But the human perspective is not God's perspective. I think some let the foreknowledge of God confuse their understanding of what goes on in the administration of the gospel.
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    Apparently you do, neither do you understand it.

    A Person can hear the Gospel, a Spiritual Message a thousand times while they are a natural man, but it will not be received 1 Cor 2:14, but after they are begotten of God by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead as Per 1 pet 1:3

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Then they are given spiritual ears to Hear the Gospel of their Salvation.. Thats why Jesus said in Jn 10:16

    16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Now as to when in their Life they Shall hear, that is up to God and His Sovereign will, but you can bank on it, they shall Hear His voice !
     
    #12 savedbymercy, Jan 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2012
  13. steaver

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    I understand why Calvin believed as he did and I can see his point from the scriptures. I also understand the Arminian point of view as well and why he believed as he did. I've studied both sides and have not fully embraced either. Kinda tells me that it isnt that important, but makes for some great bible study! Maybe that is why God allowed the scriptures to be viewed from these two different perspectives, it keeps us ALIVE! We just need to be careful that it does not divide us as brothers and sisters in Christ. Paul said that knowledge is worthless if one has not charity. I have some very good friends in church who are Calvinist, if you want to call them that, but we get along great in brotherly love! Even if I fully embraced the Calvin perspective it would not alter my ministry or witnessing. Either way, I know it is God who gives the increase.
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    steaver

    Where have I quoted calvin ? I have presented you the word of God !
     
  15. steaver

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    I dont know if you quoted Calvin verbatim, but it appears to me that you hold to Calvin's writings on the subject, no?

    You did present the Word of God, but you also added your exegsis, correct? Your not saying that your exegsis is the Word of God are you?
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    That is the biblical teaching.....:thumbsup:
     
  17. Walter

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    Excellent point! I was at a bible study group that was aimed at people who did not have church affiliation or had been affiliated but no longer were for what ever reason. The two leaders of the group got into a very heated discussion over these theological positons just prior to the start of the study. All this was witnessed by this group of people who, for the most part, were there because they were told they were getting into a bible study that was being presented in a non-threatening or confrontational fashion. Not many returned the following week.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Steaver.....have you ever read or heard George Whitefield's Sermon "The Method Of Grace" ?

    you might learn something & he(George Whitefield) might answer some of those questions you have.....really about how we see Salvation in general. Brother, I highly recommend it.:thumbs:
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Yes & I didnt get saved till I was 53 YO....by then I had plenty of damage via my sinning.....funny thing though, I always thought I was a Christian....it was Whitfield's sermon, "The Method Of Grace" that convicted me of having the "SIN OF UNBELIEF". Frankly it shocked me....as he says, I was in carnal lethargy. LOL, OK well anyway that was the wakeup call.....I since have turned my life around.....I seriously read all I could about Salvation theology & my bible of course. That which I disdained, I suddenly understood. My eyes were suddenly open. I have embraced the Gospel, Ive been led back & through the Scriptures by the HS & I am at peace.

    I will tell you this though Stever, my God actively worked on me to turn me around. And for a guy like me who is very aware of all the horific stuff I did prior to it....its truly a miracle! What a precious gift given to me.....one who doesn't deserve it......Its nothing short of NEW life!

    I wish you all the best in your search & most of all , I wish you the peace & contentment that only Christ can provide.
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    steaver

    I have not quoted him at all. Read the posts, I show where I quoted from each time, it was from scripture !

    So the point is, no one for who Christ died can be held under condemnation, not even while they are unbelievers. If they are condemned at anytime Christ's death for them was of non effect before God on their behalf !
     

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