Explicit Messianic Prophecy

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Carson Weber, Oct 21, 2003.

  1. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    "Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and , that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected" (Wisdom of Solomon 2:12-20).

    "So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 'He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God'" (Mt 27:41-43).
     
  2. jimraboin

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    Hi Carson,

    What's your point?

    Jim
     
  3. BobRyan

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    How about Isaiah 53 as "A Messianic Prophecy"??

    It is to the Orthodox Jews - what Hebrews 10 is to the faithful Catholic.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. GraceSaves

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    Great work, Carson. [​IMG]

    Too bad it seems to be going over their heads.

    Hmm, gee. I wonder why those rabbis didn't want to include the deuterocanonicals when they met in 90 AD. Too bad you guys trusted their judgement.
     
  5. Downsville

    Downsville
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    Hi Grace saves
    you wrote
    Hmm, gee. I wonder why those rabbis didn't want to include the deuterocanonicals when they met in 90 AD

    Sorry to say what youve written is also over my head.Are you talkin of the Apocraphia books? Do you know the history? Just started reading them a few days ago. Where did they come from and why are they not in the bible? Do you know?
     
  6. BobRyan

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    The good news is that Jews and Christians BOTH accept the Book of Isaiah.

    And Isaiah 53 is far more direct than what you have quoted.

    Just as Hebrews 10 is very direct when speaking of the fact that the sacrifice of Christ is not "ongoing" or continually "offerred".

    Isaiah 53 is a good thing to avoid if you want to stay as a non-Christian Jew.

    And Hebrews 10 is good to avoid if you want to stay... well you know.

    Hey. How about that Apocrypha!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Downsville

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    Hey Bob
    Thanks for the correct spelling of Apocrypha. But is that what you guys are talkin about.Have ya read them Bob?
     
  8. GraceSaves

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    Downsville,

    The word "Apocrypha" is a word placed upon these books by Protestants, which means "hidden." There is nothing hidden about them. They have always been included in the Septuigent, the Greek Old Testament, for these books were originally written (to our knowledge) in Greek rather than Hebrew. Because of this, they are often referred to as Deutercanonical, or "second canon." Apocrphal books are those books which no Christian Church accepts, and there are apocryphal books in the New Testament era, too.

    These books have always been accepted by the Christian Church, and for a bit of evidence,the first printed-press Bible contained them AS Scripture (which predates Martin Luther and his taking them out).

    Several of these books are very Messianic in some of their message, and its no wonder that the Jewish rabbis at their council in 90 AD decided to exclude them from the Jewish canon of Scripture.

    They are the Word of God, and they ARE the Word of God, as testified to by Christian history.
     
  9. GraceSaves

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    33rd Sunday of Ordinary Time, Year B
    Hebrews 10: 11-14, 18

    4th Sunday of Advent, Year C
    Hebrews 10:5-10

    This is just a quick overview. This isn't even getting into daily Mass readings, which would cover the rest of it. That first reading (which is coming up in just a few weeks!) is probably that terrible passage that we Catholics "ignore."

    Your comments tire me, Bob. Lots of fluff, little substance.
     
  10. Carson Weber

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    We learned today in one of my graduate courses on the Bible (we're studying the Baptism in the Jordan) that Hebrews 1:3 alludes to Wisdom 7:26

    "He reflects [apaugasma] the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature" (Heb 1:3).

    "For she is a reflection [apaugasma] of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image [eikon] of his goodness" (Wisdom 7:26).

    Also, note "He is the image [eikon] of the invisible God" (Col 1:15).

    While eikon is more widely used in the Greek Scriptures, apaugasma is a relatively rare term.

    In the Book of Wisdom, esp. Chapters 6 through 10, Wisdom (Hb. hokmah; Gk. sophia) is personified and described as co-eternal with God, and the New Testament writers pick this up and utilize this Deuterocanonical text by means of literary allusion.
     
  11. neal4christ

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    Very interesting thread.....thanks, Carson! I was not aware that there were Messianic prophecies to be found in the DCs.

    Thanks,
    Neal
     
  12. Downsville

    Downsville
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    Hi Grace Saves
    What scriptures in these books were they afraid of. What were they trying to hide?
     
  13. Carson Weber

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    Neal,

    You're welcome.

    The Septuagint was compared to the "Golden Calf" of Exodus 32 by the Rabbis during the time of the Early Church because it was used - in such a widespread fashion - to convert Jews in the diaspora who spoke and read Greek due to Alexander the Great's Hellenization of the Mediterranian world. The book of Wisdom was a prophetic text [even though it within the genre of the "Writings"] of Jesus and was used by the Early Christians to convince Jews and other Israelites that Jesus is the Messiah.
     
  14. GraceSaves

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    That's what the opening post on this thread is a perfect demonstration of!
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    If you want to read an Explicit Prophetic Scripture you will find it in Michah 5:2. Out of Judah will come forth a Leader who will become Ruler in Israel. Was Jesus an earthly ruler at age twelve, thirty or thirty-three years of age? He said His Kingdom was not of this world at His first coming. But at His Second Coming He will be the world Ruler over all the nations. Zechariah 14:9 and 17 also prophecied this same truth. In the Millennial Kingdom Jesus will be theocratic Ruler over the whole earth. We as Christians look forward with excitement to that coming day.
     
  16. Carson Weber

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    Ray, you're still looking for the worldly kingdom of the Messiah, just like the Jewish Sanhedrin of the Fig Tree Generation. Get with the program, brother.. the Messianic Kingdom is here. Our Messiah has been enthroned. The Church isn't Plan B. It has been revealed and we are a kingdom of priests with Jesus Christ as our king and head.

    "the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God, as he announced to his servants the prophets, should be fulfilled" (Rev 10:7).

    "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev 11:15)

    The 7th trumpet has blown, brother. The tenth of the city has fallen. The Jerusalem Temple, which comprised 1/10th of the land of Jerusalem, has been destroyed at the hands of the Gentiles (11:13). The Jewish-Roman War has already come and gone for 72 months between February 67 AD and September 70 AD, one month after the Temple was decimated, not one stone left upon another. The Zealots have already committed the massacre of 8,400 of their brothers in the royal palace (11:13). The Temple where the Law and the Prophets were read (Moses & Elijah) has been destroyed (11:7), yet the Law and the Prophets remain as they are preached in Christ Jesus, their fulfillment (11:11) in the Heavenly Jersualem, the Church.
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    Carson,

    I believe that you and I are a part of the Christian Church and also are in the Kingdom of God right now. However, I believe in and look for the Messianic Kingdom to be established on the earth after the Second Coming of Christ.

    The last question of the Jewish Christians was, 'Lord, will you at this time restore again the Kingdom of Israel? [Acts 1:6]

    Notice Jesus did not deny that a Kingdom of Israel would take place in the future, but rather said, 'It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath placed in His own power.'

    If there were no coming Messianic Kingdom of one thousand years, Jesus would have stopped this error in its tracks. But He did not stop their ideas about that which was to come.

    Yes we are in the church. Yes we are in the Kingdom of God. And yes there will be a Kingdom Age on this earth at a future time.

    Carson, you said in your post on October 23, 2003 05:14 PM, 'Ray, you're still looking for the worldly kingdom of the Messiah . . . '

    Ray is saying, You are correct; I await the Kingdom Age as did the Apostolic band of believers. [Acts 1:6-7] As you well know the Messianic Kingdom was taken away from them in 70 A.D. with the Fall of Jerusalem, but it will be renewed after the Great Tribulation as duly noted in Romans 11:23-27. The deliverer of Zion will be Jesus Christ at His Second Coming.
     
  18. GraceSaves

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    Funny, Protestants (possibly even yourself, I'd have to check through a ton of threads to know for sure) reject this same type of response when related to the Jews who cannot accept what Jesus says in John 6, and he does not correct them.
     
  19. Carson Weber

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    Hi Ray,

    I believe in and look for the Messianic Kingdom to be established on the earth after the Second Coming of Christ.

    Do you have any idea how ludicrous this idea is? Temple sacrifice re-instated? Rapture of true believers into Heaven for seven years? The Church is Plan B? An exact 1,000 reign of Christ on Earth, which is derived from an Apocalyptic genre of Scripture?

    The last question of the Jewish Christians was, 'Lord, will you at this time restore again the Kingdom of Israel? [Acts 1:6]

    Notice that Jesus didn't say "no" either. Jesus affirms the coming of the kingdom but conceals the precise timing determined by the Father. His words imply that speculation is pointless, although the parable in Lk 19:11-27 denied that the kingdom would come in its fullness when Jesus arrived in Jerusalem at the start of Passion Week.

    Jesus gives a thumbnail sketch of Acts in v. 8: "Jerusalem (Ch. 1-7), Judea (Ch. 8-12), and the Roman Empire (Ch. 13-28). Jesus' ascension is described as a heavenly enthronement (on the crest of Mt. Olivet, directly east of Jerusalem) in order to send forth his spirit to restore the kingdom through the missionary effort of his disciples.

    Jesus' return to the Father evokes the vision of Daniel 7:13, where the messianic Son of man is carried to the Ancient of Days on the clouds of heaven.

    As you well know the Messianic Kingdom was taken away from them in 70 A.D. with the Fall of Jerusalem, but it will be renewed after the Great Tribulation as duly noted in Romans 11:23-27.

    Bro, the Great Tribulation is old news, a past event. The Church already underwent this Tribulation between the burning of Rome in 64 AD when Nero began the persecution of the Church as a separate entity from Judaism and the Church's flight into the desert in 67 AD. to Pella in the Transjordan for 1260 days (Cf Revelation 12).

    The Messianic Kingdom was revealed publicly to the Sanhedrin at the Fall of Jerusalem when the Son of Man judged the faithless Olive Tree Generation, destroyed the Temple and the Holy City, and made way for the upbuilding of his Messianic Kingdom: the Church.
     
  20. Downsville

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    What religion teaches theres no 1000 yr period of rest or that that period has started already. Theres an awful lot of scripture that would have to be ignored to hold onto that doctrine.
     

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