Exposed: False Illustrations to ‘Prove’ Doctrine – Part 5

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Sep 15, 2013.

  1. Protestant

    Protestant
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    Once again, our well-meaning board member insists on using fleshly, earthly ‘ingenuity’ to conjure up illustrations which he declares makes ‘nonsense’ of such biblical truth as Irresistible Saving Grace given effectually to the Predestined Elect. The board member understands faith to be the gift of God, but in order to elevate and glorify the idol called man’s ‘free will’, he postulates man in the god-like position to make God’s eternal purpose of salvation either succeed or fail depending on man’s good or bad use of ‘free will.’ Christ paid the sin debt for all men, yet all men do not ‘accept’ that gracious gift, the Pelagian preaches.

    Example # 5:

    “You have to accept what Jesus did for you. Again, it would be like me buying a car for you and offering it to you as a gift. If you accept it, all well and good. But perhaps you are a proud man who refuses to accept what he considers "charity" from others. You could refuse to accept this free gift.

    Does that mean I didn't spend the money to buy the car? Nonsense.”

    Refutation:

    This ‘illustration’ is not only nonsense, it makes no sense.

    God is not a car salesman offering a free car to all customers who enter his showroom.

    Nor is He Oprah offering free cars to her studio audience.

    He is the Lord God Almighty, the infinite omnipotent sovereign ruler of Heaven and Earth.

    “And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” (Dan. 4:35)

    Auto manufacturers design and promote their cars for sale to specific targeted buyers. Sometimes they fail, as did the Edsel. And sometimes they succeed, as did the SUV.

    Contrary to the auto industry, the Lord does not fail at any purpose. However, like the auto industry, the Lord has a targeted ‘buyer’ --- certain sinners whom He chooses, called the Elect. He chooses according to His own totally free will contingent on nothing in the sinner. It is in regard to the Elect that the Lord sovereignly and freely bestows effectual saving grace which actually saves to the uttermost.

    His Son purchased the salvation of those elected by the Father. Payment was made in full and accepted by the Father. The Holy Spirit endows the Elect with all spiritual gifts necessary unto eternal life.

    Unlike the car salesman who is hopin’ and wishin’ and wishin’ and hopin’ a qualified serious buyer enters the showroom to buy a vehicle, God Almighty comes to the specific Elect sinner (who has nothing of worth to offer God) and effectually bestows upon him the gift of the Holy Spirit which the Elect sinner does not refuse.

    The Elect sinner does not refuse this gift because of the gracious, merciful, compassionate work the Lord does on the sinner’s heart, intellect and will.

    The Lord declares He has the power and right to do this:

    “Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?” (Matt. 20:15)

    “The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.” (Proverbs 21:1)

    “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Phil. 2:13)

    “Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power…..” (Psalm 110:3a)


    “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” (Romans 9:21)

    Conclusion:

    “Ye board member do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matt. 22:29)
     
  2. Winman

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    Who said God is a car salesman? Not I.

    But the scriptures say eternal life is a "gift".

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    No one is compelled to accept a gift, people refuse or return gifts all the time. A young man may offer a young lady an engagement ring, but she can refuse it. The law itself accepts this;

    http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/returning-engagement-ring-30198.html

    Many a young lady has refused to accept the gift of an engagement ring from a young man.

    Does that mean the young man did not pay for the ring? Of course not.
     
    #2 Winman, Sep 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2013
  3. Herald

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    Protestant,

    Well, you are right, but it will be counted as much ado about nothing by those who advocate self-autonomous free will. But that is not a reason not to teach the truth.
     
  4. Winman

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    God himself says men have free will;

    Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
    3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
    4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

    God said that ANY MAN among the Jews could bring an offering to him, and that he was to offer it of HIS OWN VOLUNTARY WILL. What is more, God said this offering would be ACCEPTED to make ATONEMENT for him.

    This means that any man has the ability to worship God of his own free will (this was an act of worship). And not only could every man freely worship God, but God himself said he would accept this offering to make atonement for them.

    If God said men have free will, that's good enough for me. I don't care what men falsely teach. :thumbsup:
     
  5. Protestant

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    Amen, Herald. "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

    The Lord's sheep hear His voice because He knows them and they follow Him. They do not respond to the voices of the thieves and robbers.

    I write for the benefit of the Lord's sheep, not the thieves and robbers.

    Blessings in Christ to you, my brother.
     
  6. sag38

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    Give it up Winman you have just been called a thief and a robber. Evidently you are lost simply because you don't agree with the poster. In fact, he wasn't even talking to you. He was just posting for the choir to read.
     
  7. Herald

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    Protestant,

    I want to make sure I understand you. I certainly do disagree with Arminian theology, even viscerally so. But are you saying those who beliece in free will are "thieves and robbers" and therefore not saved?
     
  8. Protestant

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    Hello Herald:

    I am in agreement with Christ. The sheep of Christ hear --- receive, understand, obey --- His voice ---- e.g., His doctrines, precepts, parables, good works; including rightly understanding the love of God, the grace of God, the liberty of God, the power of God.........through personal revelation given by the Holy Spirit as confirmed in His Word.

    In other words, Christ's sheep --- who are in various stages of Christian growth --- will ultimately come to know the truth because it is the Lord God Almighty who is their Teacher, Father, Counselor, Advocate, Savior and Lord who loved them from the beginning and chose them not because they already knew the truth and were already holy, but rather chose them in order that they become holy and come to belief in the truth.

    The truth we are concerned with in these essays is the truth of our salvation. This is truth which the Lord has revealed in numerous ways and by numerous prophets and Apostles, including the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not a hidden, secret truth which resides in the inscrutable mind of God. It is a revealed truth which glorifies God to the highest degree.

    It is this preeminent truth which God proclaimed to Moses:

    "18 And he [Moses] said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

    19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." (Exodus 33: 18-19)​


    Paul understood the import of this divine revelation. It was the foundation of the absolute authority, power, freedom and sovereignty of the Lord by which He decides and executes His decrees of election and reprobation. His teaching in Romans 9 stresses this understanding, as well as reflecting the will of God that Christians receive and believe this divine revelation.

    Peter stressed the difficulty of coming to a clear understanding of the doctrine of Election as taught by Paul in several Epistles. Peter also acknowledged that many were twisting Paul's words to their eternal destruction.

    In reading your testimony, Herald, you admitted to grappling with the truth of Election as taught in Scripture for many years. Yet you could not let it go. Finally, by God's grace, the Holy Spirit revealed, in no uncertain terms, the truth of Election to you personally and effectually.

    You now truly understand the meaning of God's free irresistible grace.

    You now truly understand the meaning of God's unfailing love for the Elect.

    You now truly understand the meaning of God's absolute freedom, sovereignty and independence.

    And you now truly understand the depth of depravity of your old sin nature.

    This is why you are so vocal in proclaiming the glorious doctrines of grace.

    This is why you refuse to take credit for any portion of your salvation, including good use of your will.

    This is why you consistently and biblically give all the credit, execution and glory to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    As to the question, are the deniers of eternal election reprobate......?

    In my opinion, based upon my knowledge of Scripture, I believe such deniers fall into 3 categories:

    (1) True Christians who either have not yet been exposed to these truths or have not been correctly taught these truths. They are ignorant, such as babes in Christ, unable to chew the meat of the Word.

    (2) True Christians who, through sin of unbelief, deny these truths, having studied them in-depth. Some deny in private, some in public.

    (3) False Christians, tares sown in the Church, who openly, perpetually, and without ceasing war against God, His Word and His people. The longer the opposition to God's truth, denying the Lord who they allege 'bought them', the more certain their reprobation. In such cases a judicial hardening is apparent.

    As Christians we are admonished to judge the fruit of the tree.

    It is my prayer that all those who name the name of Christ depart from iniquity.....that includes promoting false doctrine which elevates sinful man to godhood, while subjugating our Holy God to man's wicked will.
     
    #8 Protestant, Sep 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2013
  9. Yeshua1

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    jesus said that NONE come to Him unless the father draws them, John states that sinners prefer to walk in darkness, paul stated that we are at war against god in our sinner natures, and peter like sheep all have gone stray from the Lord...

    Seems that the "only" free will that we have left is to reject God, doesn't it?
     
  10. Winman

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    #1 Yes, Jesus said no man can come to him unless the Father draws him, and then he explains exactly how a man is drawn by the Father.

    Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Did Jesus say men have to be supernaturally regenerated to come to him? NO, Jesus said they need to be taught. No man can believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him, and no man can hear of Jesus unless a preacher is sent to preach the word of God to him.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    No other verse so directly addresses ABILITY as does Romans 10:14. Does Paul say a man needs to be regenerated to believe in Jesus? No, Paul only says a man needs to hear of Jesus to believe. Does Paul say a man must be regenerated to have the ability to hear the word of God? No, Paul only says a preacher must be sent to preach the word of God to them.

    So what men lack is not ability to believe, but knowledge. No man can believe what he does not know.

    #2 John did not say men prefer to walk in darkness, you do not know scripture. Jesus said some men love darkness because their deeds are evil. Other men do not love darkness and come to the light.

    Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    Jesus did not teach that all men love darkness, because in verse 21 he speaks of men that do truth and come to the light.

    So again, you err because you do not know the scriptures.

    #3 Paul said the carnal mind is enmity against God, but this does not mean that a man cannot turn from carnal thoughts and place faith in Christ.

    Romans 8:9 says a man without the indwelling Spirit is "in the flesh", but Paul shows that men must believe to receive the Spirit, therefore the natural man is able to believe.

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    A person is not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in him, therefore the opposite would be true, the man without the indwelling Spirit is "in the flesh".

    Nevertheless, Paul shows repeatedly that a man receives the Spirit by first believing on Jesus.

    Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    If a man receives the Spirit by believing, as Paul shows here, then the natural man has the ability to turn from a carnal mind and place faith in Jesus. This is exactly what God himself says in Proverbs 1;

    Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

    God says if a man will turn or repent at his reproof, then afterward God would pour out his Spirit to that man. Peter said the same.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Peter told the Jews to repent and believe on Jesus (for only believers are baptized), and they would afterward receive the Holy Spirit.

    All of these many verses show that a natural man can turn from being carnally minded and place faith in Jesus, and if he does so God will give him the Holy Spirit. These scriptures utterly refute the false doctrine of Total Inability.

    #4 And yes, Peter did say we have all gone astray like sheep, but are now RETURNED to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls. This refutes Original Sin.

    1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    Calvinism (and many others) teach that men are born dead in sin, separated from God at birth, but Peter said we are now RETURNED to Jesus. You cannot return someplace you have never been. I cannot return to Utah, because I have never been to Utah. I can return to California, because I have been to California before. Therefore this verse proves men are not born separated from God as many falsely teach. Jesus also confirmed this;

    Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

    When the prodigal son repented and returned to his father, twice Jesus said the boy was alive AGAIN. If men are born dead in sin, then it could never be said that any man was alive again, but this is exactly what Jesus said twice.

    All of these verses refute Original Sin and therefore also refute Total Inability.

    Your problem is that you mindlessly listen to false teachers and do not study the scriptures for yourself to see what they really say. Not too bright.
     
    #10 Winman, Sep 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2013
  11. Herald

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    Protestant,

    I am glad you expanded on your original answer. Thank you.

    My concern was that your original post could be misconstrued as suggesting that Christians who deny the doctrines of grace may be no Christians at all. I agree that there are Christians who are in error, either through ignorance or willfully, who are still Christians. Of course there are always going to be false sheep in the fold; those who deny their Lord and Master. They may fool even the wisest and most pious of Christians, but they cannot fool the Lord.
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    glad that you made this point, as there are some calvinists who mean well, but in their zeal to uphold what they see as "rightdoctrines", almost make it seem that only calvinists are saved, as they hold that arminians and others have a false gospel, wrong jesus!

    Thankfully, truth is that we ALL are saved in exactly same manner, just that calvinists understand the method used in a more biblical way!
     

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