Extra Biblical goes both ways

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jul 3, 2007.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    It seems that there are plenty of arguments about things that aren't in the Bible.

    On one hand there are arguments about things like playing cards, going to movies etc which are NOT in the Bible. They are modern inventions. Modern man made ways of pleasing the Father that just won't work.

    Equally erroneous is trying to keep up with the times and allowing things like women pastors, women baptizing, puppet shows as part of worship, etc.

    Just like a tight rope, it doesn't matter which side you fall off. You will end up on the ground either way.

    Basically, don't add OR subtract.
     
  2. Dale-c

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    I might add that God never changes. Because of this, there are no things that are now sins that were not before.
    Likewise there are no sins that are now ok because they are socially and politically correct like women as elders in their churches.
     
  3. Martin

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    ==While I understand why certain groups look down on card playing, playing cards is not a sin. It can become a sin if done in certain ways but in no way is just playing cards a sin.

    ==Bingo. Yet how many times do I hear Christians say that we should not attend movies. I think this "rule" maybe disappearing a bit though. Which is good news. I cite the recent surge in Christian movies, and churches/church members, flocking to see these movies (for better or worse).

    As for me, I have no problem going to see a movie. It is a rare thing when I do but I always enjoy it. Mainly when it is a good scary movie (which they make very few of anymore). I love horror movies...I guess that makes me evil? :laugh:

    ==I agree. What did Paul say about these kind of "rules" in Colossians 2:16-23? These man-made rules are "of no value against fleshly indulgence". Sure there are limits. I would never go see a movie that I knew had a lot of bad language, sex scenes, or unnecessary violence. As far as horror movies go, I would never see a movie that supported devil worship (etc). I like the old fashion horror movies. You know, creepy houses and things that go bump in the night. Slash movies are not real horror anyway. So there are limits but each of us must set those limits ourselves.

    ==Women pastors are a direct violation of Scripture. My grandmother's old church (the old family church) now has a woman as their assistant pastor. It seems like this is the pattern they are working towards. It is a United Methodist Church so they rotate pastors (etc) every few years. The reason I say they are in a pattern is that the last two pastor "sets" have been a man (lead pastor) and a woman (assistant pastor). My grandmother, who was a God-fearing old time Methodist, would be sickened by this direct violation of Scripture. As would many of the other Godly men, many of whom are my ancestors, who worked to build that church over the past one hundred years or so. There was a time when it was our family church now, sadly, I don't know anyone in my family who attends that church. In fact I doubt many of the modern members of that church would even know my family or the other families that struggled to build that church. That church has forgotten it's Godly history (Ex 1:8).

    As for puppet shows, that is just silly. I can see using puppet shows in children's classes (etc) but for adults? Come now.

    :thumbs:
     
    #3 Martin, Jul 4, 2007
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  4. Dale-c

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    I should add that there is nothing wrong with puppet shows...just not in worship :)
     
  5. ShotGunWillie

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    I guess I missed the "Great Movie Debate". What exactly did I miss?

    1. Going to the movies at all is a sin?
    2. Going to certain movies that has unsuitable content for children is a sin for the child by not the adult it was intended for?
    3. Going to movies with adult content is wrong for both children and adults?
    4. Barney is Satan and if not him, then he must be the False Prophet?

    I believe #4 is correct, prove me wrong!!
     
  6. EdSutton

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    Humerous!

    Ed
     
  7. EdSutton

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    I don't necessarily agree that "woman pastors" or "woman baptizing" is wrong, but take that part out of it and I can and do agree with this wholeheartedly, and especially the "Basically, don't add OR subtract.".

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=40901

    See my posts, especially #'s 102, 108, 110 ,122, and 130 in this thread for a 'pastor v. 'elder' Biblical comparison for more detail, and to show why I do not find any prohibition against a "woman pastor". Pastor is a spiritual gift, not an office in Scripture. I do find a prohibition against a "woman elder". Elder is an office, not a Spiritual gift in Scripture. I'm not going to repost all this, here, on that subject, for any who really wish to know why I believe this, can read it for themselves.

    Ed
     
  8. EdSutton

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    Respectfully, there is not one verse of Scripture that says this.

    I sugest the "direct violation of Scripture" is equating the office of Elder with the Spiritual gift of Pastor. (There is "a direct violation of Scripture" with a woman elder, Biblically, in the office of Bishop/elder.)
    See my previous post #7 for details on this.

    Ed
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    What is confusing Ed; is that all the Pastors I know or have heard of are Elders or ordained men. I understand what you are saying now, but did not at first. You believe that pastors can be "lay" person, of which I doubt if there are many, who understand why you say that women could be pastors, is because they don't have to be ordained to be a pastor, according to your belief.

    I hope I got that right, if not I am sure you will "straighten" me out. :)
     
  10. EdSutton

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    You are getting there, but "count not yourself to have arrived" as did not Paul, for we still have a little ways to go to an exact agreement, I think.

    I dunno'. I've been trying really hard, for a year an a half, without exactly overwhelming success in many areas. :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    I said "according to your belief". I am nowhere near you yet, especially women baptizing.:)

    How did you ever get a Old Regular Baptist woman? We have some churches down around Louisville in the Northern New Salem and Old Indian Bottom. Surely you didn't sneak around over there and take her away from those brothers and sisters? :laugh:
     
    #11 Brother Bob, Jul 5, 2007
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  12. Jim1999

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    Ordination is a man-contrived method of demonstrating a person's call to ministry. We do not need ordination to minister the word. We don't need ordination to perform weddings, funerals, baptisms, etc. In Canada, all the government needs is a letter recognizing a person as the "pastor" of a church to perform weddings. So, what is ordination, but an extra-biblical ceremony?

    When I was growing up, the question asked to determine whether something was good or bad, such as picture shows, was the question of testimonial values and how they are affected by one's attendance.

    G. Campbell Morgan's ministry almost came to an end because he did his pastoral duty in visiting the daughter of a member of his church. She was a prostitute. Some good people of his church reported that he was visiting a prostitute and called for his resignation. So, even in fulfilling one's calling can have deliterious affects on one's personal witness.

    If moving pictures are so bad, why is it ok to view them on the telly in the privacy of our own homes? Yet it was so.......What others don;t know, won't hurt them.......

    There are a lot of things acceptable to-day that I wouldn't have done 60 years ago!

    I remember one pastor remarking about women being allowed to go topless in public in Ontario by law....He said, "Men have been going topless for years!" Thankfully, I always wore a t-shirt when I went swimming.............

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  13. EdSutton

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    Actually, I have not addressed "women baptizing' at all on the BB. So you would not know whether or not you and I are close or far apart on this. Some others have, but not me. I haven't had the time, thus far.

    And my bride happened to be the best friend and co-worker of my now sister-in-law, whom I met when she came to visit her out on the farm, when my brother and I were putting out a crop, that spring day. And she lived in Lexington, when I met her. I do not know what was the name of the Association she grew up around, nor am I sure she knows the actual name. But when I did decipher the 'order' to figure out it was Old Regular Baptist, and called the name, she agreed that was it. It had been over twenty years removed, at the time.

    Ed
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    Ordaination is not a man constrived thing according to scripture. Even other offices were ordain in OT and the way was ordain also.

    1 Corth:
    17: But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

    1 Tim 1:
    12: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

    Titus 1:
    1: Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    2: In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    3: But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
    4: To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
    5: For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
    6: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7: For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8: But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
    9: Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
    10: For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
    11: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

    Also, their qualifications.

    1Tim 4:
    11: These things command and teach.
    12: Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
    13: Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
    14: Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
    15: Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
    16: Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
     
    #14 Brother Bob, Jul 5, 2007
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  15. Brother Bob

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    ED;
    Seems you stuck your foot in the water anyway on women baptizing. Do you know Carl Rowe?

    ED;
    Again, you seem to pull the strings in favor of women baptizing, but a person has to really know you to understand you, and I don't think I know you yet. I do think you like to play the "devils advocate" on issues brought up on BB, even whether you believe that way or this way. You remind me of an Uncle of mine who would say "when is your birthday", when you told him, he would say "no, that is not your birthday, it is just a rememberance of your birthday". He always would set you up and then knock the wheels out from under you, all in fun. Sometimes though, the receiver did not think it was funny. :)
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Jul 5, 2007
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  16. EdSutton

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    Never heard of him, before today. I looked up the name and found he is a landscape artist from CA, but that is all I know. Should I have???

    Context, Brother Bob! And did you notice the word "necessarily"? It is a qualifier, for what is around it.

    I pulled no strings at all, especially since I said absolutely nothing about women actually baptizing. I haven't seen any Scripture about the subject posted that was, in my mind, in any way definite on the subject (although I did read a bunch of opinions from all sides), and so would not agree to that particular provision when I agreed with the poster, from which you are citing, as to adding to or taking away from Scripture. Please don't read more into what I have said, than what I actually have said, to date. It only clouds the issue with extra stuff.

    Ed
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    I don't have the least idea what you are talking about, but that is nothing, I usually do not know what you are talking about. :) Please don't read anything into this that is not there.

    ps. the name is Karl Rowe, I forgot he spells his name with a K since going to Washington.
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Jul 5, 2007
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  18. av1611jim

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    I believe you got TWO letters wrong.

    Rove. Not Rowe.
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    In HIS service;
    Jim

    Thanks, I did get it wrong. Tell you the truth, I think Ed knew who I meant all along. :laugh: :laugh:

    Karl Rove
     
  20. EdSutton

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    Seems a bit of a stretch, to me, to take what Paul was saying about marriage and potential marriage in I Cor. 7 to cite this use of the word "diatassO" meaning arrange or prescribe, and only here rendered as "ordain" to apply to a supposed "office" of pastor, don't you think? But of course, when one is mustering up suport, attempting to defend some long held tradition, then I guess... :rolleyes:

    BTW, I fully support "appointing" elders, as that is entirely Biblical! (I do not support designating one individual to any 'one' church. It has to be multiple, to get my full support, and I do not support 'ordaining' any so-called "Senior Pastor", BTW.
    And BTW, the word "kathistEmi" (rendered as ordain, by the KJV ) merely means to appoint or to designate. It does not carry the force of some 'solemn rite', as is usually practiced today. So I tend to agree with Jim1999 on 'ordination', here, regardless of "who is doing it", even including most churches I know, up to and including my home church.

    But it is not something I have seen fit to leave over, since all the alternatives I've seen, are usually far worse in other areas of doctrine, and I have no desire or leading to start another church.

    Ed
     

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