Extra ecclesiam nulla salus - moi?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Matt Black, Nov 30, 2004.

  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    I'd be grateful if BBmembers, particularly those of a Catholic persuasion, even better still if we have any ordained priests here, could explain arts 846 and 847 of the Catechism to me, with particular reference to:-

    1. I was baptised and brought up a Catholic, including Catholic schooling until age 12
    2. I stopped going to church at age 12
    3. I underwent an evangelical-style conversion experience/ committed by life to Christ etc at 16 and have been firmly within the evangelical stream, sometimes more charismatic, other times more conservative than others, and don't accept sacramental soteriology..
    4. According to the above, does the Catholic Church say I'm damned?

    Please, no indulging in what appears to be a favourite sport of some American Baptists, Catholic bashing!

    Yours in Christ

    Matt

    PS The quote in art 846 comes from art 14 of Lumen Gentium
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Better - Catholic quoting than catholic bashing.

    #1. Has the Catholic Church changed its view of this doctrine?

    #2. Does the RCC agree with its historic positions on this teaching?

    #3. What is that position?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Having said that - I do have a quote from Catholic Digest stating that non-Catholics are considered to be saved - but they are saved by some means other than the Biblical "new Covenant".

    The reason is that the Biblical New Covenant (which IS the Gospel by the way) is confined to the RC MASS.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Matt Black

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    I see that there is the usual tension between the theological and the pastoral here. But it doesn't totally reassure me - given that I had, in Catholic eyes, a far from heretical upbringing and yet walked away from it all at some point between the ages of 12 and 16. My 'journey of faith' has been taken, in so far as I could take it, with integrity. My reasons for leaving the Catholic Church as a teenager:-

    1. Boredom
    2. Disagreement with the Church's teaching on contraception (strangely enough, at the time that was the only dogma with which I disagreed!)
    3. Peer pressure - although my late mother's side were all Catholic, my father;s side and my stepmother were all Anglican, as were my brother and sister, and I wanted to fit in with them more
    4. Going to a Salesian College run by overbearing priests
    5. The exclusivist claims of the Church, which I at the time found rather arrogant although I have to admit this opinion was partly generated by #3 above

    But I still have my nagging doubts the back of my mind of fear that the path I have chosen may be wrong; to paraphrase Rowan Atkinson's Devil sketch, "Evangelicals, are you here? Ah, yes, sorry about this but I'm afraid the Catholics were right after all." Plus I have Catholic relatives including my grandmother who died on Thursday so I kind of keep having to juggle my personal dogmas with my personal relationships.

    Another, supplementary question re the 'salus' bit - is this salvation from Hell or just Purgatory?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  5. Melanie

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    Hi Matt, I was expelled from Religion classes for getting pretty annoyed with Sister N... (as only a teenager can!) when she confirme that there is no salvation out of the RCC. My mum being a good Christian woman and Lutheran was apparently condemned to Hell.

    This is still Church teaching and it is still an area I have great trouble with. I believe no-one can understand the Will of God, and therefore entrust this bit of church teaching to the Almighty. With the ecumenical craziness that has infected the RCC, you can deny the presence of God and the Divinity of Jesus and still be assured of Eternity......
     
  6. BobRyan

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    The Bible and prayer is the direct gateway to God - read and pray and encounter God directly.

    The alternative is tradition and salvation by proxy of some sinner on earth standing between you and God. And when you get to heaven and find out "that we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (2Cor 5) no matter what stories your priests told you - how dissappointing that will be for those thinking that the Priest was "keeping the books" for them.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Matt Black

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    Hi B-G. At least it's a bit toned-down compared to the anathemas of Trent - now that really is scary stuff!

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  8. LorrieGrace

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    Matt,

    I am sorry about the death of your grandmother. I am sure that must be hard.

    I think that satan can make us feel scared because he doesn't want us to feel any peace. God is peace and love and all things that satan hates.

    I always know when I have quit walking as close as I should to God because I find that the devil doesn't bother me.

    God created EVERYTHING is this world. There is no way that He cannot keep a promise. That is a lot easier than making all out of nothing. He says that we cannot be plucked from His hand.

    I am relying soley on Jesus for my eternal life. Not any church.

    I have a friend who joins different religions, Catholic included, because he wants to make sure that he gets to heaven--one way or another. I find that very sad, but he thinks it is funny.
     
  9. Matt Black

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    My reasons for bringing this up are very serious and I don't view them as a joke - see my post just above B-G's. You see, I have the desperate desire to do the Right Thing (TM) by God: if being a Catholic again is the Right Thing then I'll do it, if remaining a conservative evangelical is the Right Thing, then I'll equally do it.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  10. Melanie

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    Bob, I have never met a priest so presumptious although that does not mean they do not exist.

    Matt, always remember that God sees into the hearts of men, whether you are a church goer or not, if you have a sincere and abiding love for God you will not be denied. Many folk have posted about concerns of dear ones who have died with the same concerns you have expressed, God Sees All.

    You are in my prayers this night.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Many a Catholic has stated that they need not worry getting God's Word straight as long as they listen to their priest and obey their church -

    In fact the argument they use is something like this - the one who has himself for a Pope has a fool for a Pope. They argue that depending on God and His Word to guide you is foolish. Why not leave this matter in the hands of trained professionals.

    You claim that no priest would make such an argument. I have found many doing that very thing.

    So when that faithful catholic stands before the judgment seat of Christ without his priest to defend him (as we see in 2Cor 5) and he reminds Christ that "just yesterday" his priest absolved him from sin -- what will be his response when Christ said "yes - but I did not"?

    Now you can work with me on this one - because it is agreed even among Catholics that not all Catholics go to heaven.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    However the subject of this thread is "outside of the church there is no salvation" the famous assertion of Catholics during the dark ages.

    And the quotes who have from Canon law are instructive on that point.

    [p.180] From the purely theological standpoint,..the only possible conclusion regarding all heretics and schismatics, Jews and pagans, is that judgment of condemnation which the Council of Florence [1438-1445] pronounced upon them.…

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Gina B

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    Matt, while I cannot answer your questions, I would like to say a couple of things.
    One is that the Bible offers assurance that you will not be damned if you believe in the salvation of God through Christ.

    Please take your Bible and read through the book of Romans. It will help you.

    There is no salvation outside of Christ. Any other version is wrong. Whenever you have doubts, go with what the Bible says. "No man cometh unto the Father but by me", not by a church, or a priest, or his own will, or unto the Father by Christ through some other person or group. Anything Baptists or Catholics say that go against the Bible is false if it disagrees.

    Gina
     
  14. Gina B

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    Ok, here's something! I am reading a book called "A Reader's Companion to Crossing the Threshold of Hope".
    It is sixteen writers on the pastoral writings of Pope John Paul II.
    If you can Matt, get this book and read the commentary of Stephen W. Brown. It deals directly with the question of one church onlyism and is short and simple.
    Gina
     
  15. Craigbythesea

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    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

    847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

    848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

    **********************

    Matt, I believe that the answers to your questions can best be found in the “Decree on Ecumenism,” one of the Sixteen Documents of Vatican II.

    The following paragraphs may be especially helpful:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Craigbythesea

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    Absolutely not! [​IMG] (See my post above).

    [​IMG]
     
  17. BobRyan

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    The problem is that the RCC can not reject the positions it has taken up in the dark ages against Protestants - in that it is written into Canon Law.

    So soften the tone of how to repeat it - yes! But change it?

    In Christ,

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Littledrummerboy

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    I think there is some confusion about Catholic doctrine here. It is too simplistic to simply bring out the catechism and read isolated passages and come to decisions based on that reading; this is an unfair straw man. The Catholic church so strongly holds to the conviction of one unified church, not only because of Christ's words of "let them be one," but also because out of the history, reading of the Bible, and philosophy of the church (mainly St. Augustine, and St. Aquinas, but also St. Anselm, Abalard,St. Bonaventure, Richard of St. Tierrie (sp?)) the church still holds onto what many modern Christians do not: the simplicity of God doctrine. This doctrine states, simply, that God is a simple being. There is no division in God. There is no movement within God, etc. This is a quite logical perspective if you consider some of the following questions: If God is eternal, and outside of time, then how can he move, because does not movement imply time? If God is eternal love, justice, etc. does he grieve? Because, if he is outside of time, he is either eternally grieving or eternally happy. These are questions with which the medievals struggled, and rightfully so, that modern Christians have all but foresaken. From the answers to these questions, the church and her brightest minds (and most devout, thinking again of Sts. Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Anselm...but probably not Abalard here (^ [​IMG] that God was simplistic in nature, and that from this nature came his eternality, and all of his attributes. Likewise, if God is simplistic, then his body (the church) must be as well. It follows then that any division within this church, even if it be on the side of the church, is not a good thing, and steps must be taken to remedy the situation. I think we can all agree the church has taken some good steps, although the weight of the reformation does not lie singly on her shoulders. To answer the original question...no, of course you are not damned. While the chruch would say (following from the same logic presented above) that you have some answering to do because you were in the original body of Christ, and you left it, you are not damned because the grace of God now extends his body and pervades all of the Earth. This does sound a little too unitarian for my tastes, but it is either say that, or condemn you all...something NONE of us is comfortable in doing. What CANNOT be asked of the church is to somehow drop her belief that she is the body of Christ (because she predates any Protestant denomination by over 1500 years), or that the body of Christ does not HAVE to be unified (again, this stems out of her doctrine of simplicity). I hope I have helped a bit. Take care

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
  19. rsr

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    Matt:

    The teaching of the Latin Rite church, as I understand it, since Vatican II has been that those who know that the church is right, and reject it, are damned.

    However, you and I are "separated brethren," who are really a part of the Church and don't know it, though we cannot receive all the benefits of the relationship.

    DOMINUS IESUS, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, June 16, 2000
     
  20. Littledrummerboy

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    Correct rsr!

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     

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